Anyone have good Lifting Rules? |
Anyone have good Lifting Rules? |
Jul 2 2006, 02:58 AM
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#26
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Vegan Cookies: why do you say my awesome delicious tasty cookies are awful if you haven't had them? You sound prejudiced. Pull-ups: haven't actually tried in about 6 months. I could almost do one, and it hurt like hell. Hell, I can only do about 10-20 pushups on a good day before my arms demand a break. I just don't have much upper body strength. Average Wt: I just guessed, but I remember reading an article recently in a Men's Health Magazine, about how the highest percentage of american males is 200+ pounds. Not the "average," mind you, but the median, which is statistically more significant. Comes from poor diets, driving everywhere, and sitting around watching TV. |
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Jul 2 2006, 04:19 AM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,850 |
Actually I agree, I never liked SR till I read the rules for 4 ed, owning 1st and 3rd rules. I really like SR I love the rules and how fast it plays out. And so far I only have a few minor problems with it, mostly how quickly someone can break an encryption and how the counter spelling works(ie with no mages in the group magic owns, with several no one can get a spell to land.) But those we have worked around. I was thinking of doing something like your base is (STR X STR) X 5 + 5 per hit. Though I don't think that works well on the lower end of the scale. I don't like the linear lifting rates either, though it isn't quite linear as written since you can get more hits and have higher str. Perhaps a chart is the best way to do it with a amount per hit added. |
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Jul 2 2006, 08:32 AM
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#28
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
A linear chart is never going to work brilliantly, but for simplicity's sake, I'm going to go with
30kg per point of strength overhead, plus 5kg per successs on Bod+Str 55kg per point of strenght straight lift, plus 10kg per success on Bod+Str That breaks down at Str 1 or 2, but it hits the right point at the upper levels. And if I figure this is likely to come up in life or death situations, I don't mind the low end pulling off the odd impressive (for them) stunt ("Did you see me pick up the dwarf? Did you see me? I picked up the dwarf!") @Serbitar. I disagree that everyone can do a pull-up. I know lots of people, even those with very good CV fitness and low body-fat, who can't even do one. The overweight especially have a hard time with this. I can do about fifteen pull-ups, but I have quite good upper-body strength (quite poor CV fitness though - must do more running). Adding "even gorillas can" doesn't help the point. Gorillas are strong (and vegan too ;) ) Anyway, so long as whatever system is used has the bulk of the weight calculated by formula with successes adding only a little, then we're on the right track. Anything that works off calculated successes or edge to reach maximums is going to be absurdly unrealistically variable. @phasmaphobic. A lifting skill does make some sense in that training the muscles for a particular action is an important part of how much weight you can move in that action. But it brings us back to rolling to see how strong you are on that day. Hitting a target at 100m is something where there are lots of variables and small changes can have a large impact, therefore a pistols skill roll makes sense. Lifting a barbell is something where there aren't, they don't and it doesn't. EDIT: Serbitar - are you talking about underhand pull-ups? I've been meaning overhand and I'd assume that phasmaphobic is too. Underhand are definitely much easier but they don't apply so well to a deadlift. You're using different muscles and the range of motion is smaller. I do agree with you that most people can lift their own weight in a dead lift, but it's not universal and I'd say that Str 1 indicates you probably can't. Especially if Body is higher than 1 or 2. |
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Jul 2 2006, 10:52 AM
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#29
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
Just my 2[yen]...
Larger people are less likely to be able to lift their own weight as they weigh proportionately more. I've known plenty of smaller people than myself that can manage many more pull-ups than me, and I know for certain that I can lift more weight than them. I just weigh more, so my power-weight ratio is less impressive. Granted I don't work out as much as I ought to, but I'm no heifer (14 stone at 6' 4"). As for fat Americans, it comes as no surprise... I just came back from an academic meeting in Boston, and they put sugar in everything! Even the salted peanuts taste sweet! My best guess is that the culture as a whole is addicted to sugar due to years of exposure by the food industry. |
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Jul 2 2006, 12:31 PM
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#30
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 28-June 06 Member No.: 8,800 |
... ummm ... okay, seems I misremembered the rules ...
damn, another one on the long list of broken ones. Try again. Lifting Overhead : Weight of 25kg * STR + 15kg per hit Enough for Joe Average (STR 3, BOD 3) to lift his own weight, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder (STR 6, BOD 6) to have a go for the world record on a good roll. Lifting/Moving at all : Weight of 30kg * STR + 20kg per hit Twice the amount if you can find a good handhold, more if you can apply a lever. Enough for Joe Average to haul his knocked-out troll buddy off the street with some effort, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder to lift up one side of a vehicle a few inches. Carrying : 10kg * STR + 5kg * BOD base. If you're carrying more than that, you take (Weight - Base)/10 Stun damage every (GM's decision, depending on how unwieldy the item is to carry) turns, reduced by one for every hit on a STR + BOD test. This value is for anyone walking on two legs or flying magically (Dragons :D), half it for a flying creature and double it for a creature using four legs. Enough for Joe Average to carry home some drinks for his Urban Brawl Playoff Party, and enough for Jim Bodybuilder to pick up one of the guys who had too much drinks and carry him up the stairs to a bedroom. And, of course, enough for a camel to carry his Beduine rider and 'camping gear'. Still not perfect, but I guess good enought to apply to PCs and most NPC ... Comments ? |
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Jul 2 2006, 02:38 PM
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#31
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Hmmm. More accurate than mine at the low end and gives around the right sort of figures on average at the high end, but suffers from the same absurdly random range of weight that the RAW does. In your system, Joe Average can usually lift 70kg above his head (that's quite a lot for most people, actually). But with luck (good roll) and a little effort (edge) he can push 130kg. Quite a jump. As I said before, I think any realistic system has to put the main bulk of the weight limit on a straight calculation from the attribute(s) with hits contributing only a small part of the total. The problem with the above isn't the average figures, but the distribution curve around them. I'm sticking with my own system until someone else can be bothered to do a progression chart which I can yoink. ;) |
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Jul 2 2006, 03:10 PM
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#32
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 28-June 06 Member No.: 8,800 |
I understand your problem, on the other hand, Progression Charts are IMHO a worse solution than a dice system if it's scaled properly - that is, if you can lift any realistic (whatever that is :D) amount without relying on luck. One consequence ist that characters can lift A LOT with a A LOT OF LUCK - that's something I can live with, 'fits with a little cinematic view of RPing where a Character can achive more than anyone though him being able if he's really pushed to it. Remember, a Character only rolls dice if he put effort into it, if he doesn't, he's stuck with Base.
And, hey, if you don't want that cinematic aspect, just use average hits instead. A 'Realistic' Chart is as impossible as a 'Realistic' Dice System. Reason : Carrying or Lifting something is not only a problem of the item's weight, but more of how you can wield or hold it - with any unwieldy object, gravity has a lever that it uses against you, and that object's "effective weight for RP lifting purposes" is much higher. And those really heavy objects tend to be really unwieldy, too :D This limits even Trolls, Giants and Dragons a bit - yes, they should be able to lift more than a normal human, but there are limits that are even applied to them : Bones can only handle so much force tearing at them, do only have a limited amount of surface to attach muscles to, muscles can be only layered to some extend before diminishing returns sets in ... Honestly though ... I haven't used any system for Lifting and Carrying for years ... probably since AD&D 2nd ed. ... , only winging up dice rolls if characters wanted to do something heroic or stupid ... and usually made a successful dice roll on a stupid venture have worse consequences than the failure :D |
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Jul 2 2006, 03:19 PM
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#33
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
there are stories (alltho not backed up by any real science that i can think of so...) about housewifes and similar going on adrenaline surges or something and lifting weights that they would not even try to lift normaly.
i guess thats what the dice should be, for when you go "beyond the call of duty" so to speak. and like phobos points out, there is a place where things pass into the realm of comic book super heros. even tho you could potentialy lift x weight, can the surface your standing on handle the now highly increased pressure that your feet are generating? there is a reason why tanks have tracks rather then wheels, beyond the added traction ;) high weight in combo with "small" footprint and you risk starting to sink into the ground :P |
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Jul 2 2006, 04:06 PM
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#34
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Ugh - superheroes. If that's the Shadowrun you want, then of course you can have it, but I'll point out again that your system has Joe Office Clerk (Str 3, Bod 3) swinging wildly between 75kg and 130kg or just possibly more depending on his luck. That's a 286lb guy he's hoisting into the air there, or 20 stone for us Brits. It's not an either / or. I said a system that is predominantly based on fixed calculation rather than rolls, which is what I detailed. There is still room for a bit of heroics, but there's realism too. As to difficulty of grip, position, etc. Obviously that is what the dice pool modifiers are for. |
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Jul 2 2006, 04:22 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815 |
Let's see here, average weight for the American male is 172lbs at 5'9". Not too slim, but still rather small.
And I really didn't mean to disparage your alternative baking skills, I've just had a number of horrifying experiences with vegan cookies. And vegan cheese. As the only unabashed carnivore at the organic coffee shop I used to work at I was subjected to countless attempts to woo me over to the meatless side. Vegan cheese really scares me btw. 25 minutes in the sanwich press and it didn't melt. That thing melted forks. <shudder> The idea of people putting that stuff in their bodies... |
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Jul 2 2006, 04:24 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Orlando Member No.: 815 |
Oh, and 20 pushups in a row would actually be quite good for an untrained male. I believe that's around average soldier fitness actually. At least for well-behaved ones.
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Jul 2 2006, 06:26 PM
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#37
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Just out of curosity, are you american? I stayed over there for a few months and what your supermarkets called 'cheese' still gives me nightmares. No offense, I mean lightbulbs, microchips, jazz, Raymond Chandler... all great stuff and thanks. But the cheese... urgh! |
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Jul 2 2006, 06:27 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Don't get me wrong: I'm not vegan. I don't like most vegan-labelled things. Vegan cheese is so beyond gross that I don't even like thinking about it. |
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Jul 2 2006, 06:28 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
You're prolly referring to American Cheese, which is one of the most disturbing cheese substances ever. There are plenty of other cheeses at supermarkets that are quite nice - just be sure and have them sliced by the deli, and not pre-packaged by Kraft. |
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Jul 3 2006, 04:44 AM
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#40
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 16-October 05 Member No.: 7,850 |
Or worse he saw Velveta! :eek: I must say that when I was working in France I couldn't believe the number of different cheeses they had in a rather small market. How about Over Head: (STR + STR) X (10 +STR) + Hits (STR + Body) X STR Lift off Ground: (STR + STR) X (22 + STR) + Hits (STR + Body) X (STR X 1.6) Though I am still thinking a chart might be best. |
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Jul 3 2006, 02:28 PM
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#41
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
No it doesn't. Weight is based on volume (assuming constant density) and so will scale with height^3. Strength is based on cross-sectional AREA (not volume) of muscles and supporting tissues (like bones), so strength only scales with height^2. That's why an ant can lift 50 times it's own weight, but if you made an ant the size of a house it's exoskeleton would splinter under its own weight and it wouldn't be strong enough to lift it's own head. There are diminishing strength returns as you get bigger. |
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Jul 3 2006, 07:15 PM
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#42
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Yeah, there's a sort of hierarchy of disgust. The English look down on American cheese and the French look down on the English and the Swiss are just off in their own little world. Velveeta rings a bell, but to be honest, I tried a lot of different cheeses and couldn't find one I liked until I discovered somewhere that imported actual British cheddar. I don't think any of the americans would touch it because it had FAT in it. The only cheese that interested me in the states was one that had halapenos embedded in it. And that was more for novelty than great quality, I'm afraid. Sorry folks. You do some good movies, though! Llewellyn, did you mistype your system, taking average values (hope this formatting works) the progression with your system for lifting overhead is:
That's quite a lot at the top end for lifting overhead as the world record (clean and jerk) is 266kg. There's a nice distribution curve though, in that there are no absurd changes in a persons strength according to which side of bed they got up that morning. You just need to play with the base numbers. I got admit though, that by this point in the thread and all these different system, why no one has explained to me what is so terribly wrong with the one I posted near the start? |
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Jul 3 2006, 09:44 PM
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#43
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,751 |
This is America. We import cheese. The only good cheese made here is from wisconsin, and not much of it leaves the state. Now, you want to talk heirarchy of disgust, everyone looks down on English cuisine. :D
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Jul 3 2006, 09:46 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Actually, Tillamook makes some damn good cheese... |
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Jul 3 2006, 11:01 PM
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#45
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, lifting and chesse.
err, just when i typed that it dawned on me what kind of silly connection one could create :silly: on the topic of cheese, anyone up for some brown stuff? works wonders on hot bread ;) yep, im talking about that "crazy" cheese we eat here in norway ;) |
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Jul 3 2006, 11:47 PM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,751 |
One of my favorites is a German called Bruder Basil. It's this smoked "rock cheese", sort of like a gouda...so smoky it's like eating a campfire.
But in a good way. |
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Jul 4 2006, 01:51 AM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
I apoligize if somebody already went over this and I missed it, but why do we include Body in a lifting test? I might understand it if we were talking about pushing something, since that allows us to throw our mass against the object, but just a straight lift seems more like a function of (squared or cubed) strength than a combination of strength and body...
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Jul 4 2006, 01:55 AM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 28-June 06 Member No.: 8,800 |
It hasn't been asked yet, and it is a valid question.
BOD is used because in reallife weightlifting depends on build as much as training strength to max. And build is reflected by BOD. Yes, it should probably be more like STR³*BOD²*Athletics(Weighlifting)² - but that would be just a little bit to complicated for a game system. |
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Jul 4 2006, 06:08 AM
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#49
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
It's a good question, but note that in the RAW and the systems people have come up with here, Body is definitely secondary to Strength (as it only contributes the occasional hit). I guess that you could allow a high Body to enhance the lift a little. It gives you more mass to balance against the weight, leverage, stability etc. Body does reflect a larger frame, so maybe someone's true strength is partly made up of both Strength and Body. I mean what would a character with Strenghth 6 and Body 1 look like? |
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Jul 4 2006, 03:46 PM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
HEY! I resent that. Engish cuisine (such as it is) is still a lot better than American cuisine. Granted a lot of the stuff cooked over here is derived from other countries (Indian, Italian etc), but the americans can't even get that right! |
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