 Need some Story Teller Advice, …or Game Master, or what ever term you u |
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  Jul 1 2006, 04:39 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 1-July 06 Member No.: 8,817  |
Bottom line is HELP!
My players are so lazy! Ok ok ok, background, I’ve been running a weekly Shadowrun game for about 3 months now, and the player are doing well, but they really drive me crazy about not tracking details, like NPC names, maps, and even there own ammo. I’ll draw out a detailed sewer map and give them a handout with a poorly draw map (they got from the Johnson) and they just say “We go to the other side” and when I ask them “What route do you take” they are like “The quickest” any attempt to slow down the action to create suspense is lost on there eager to get it over with mindset. And if I insist “Well you should have written the piece of info down” they lecture me on how there “characters” would have remembered so they don’t have to. Argggg! Sad thing is I have no other players to draw from, so it’s this group or bust. Ok, so how can I get these guys intrested in keeping track of the details Like fake SIN names, ammo, NPC names, even what there mission is at times. Sorry for the rant, but any help would be gratefull. Zero |
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Jul 1 2006, 05:09 PM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
you cannot force them to roleplay.
the best you can do is to reward roleplaying. for example, i believe the BBB suggests handing out bonus karma for those who roleplay... if not in this edition, then certainly in previous editions it did. if these guys are really that interested in just rollplaying without any roleplaying, then the words "bonus karma" adds an element of rollplaying to the roleplaying, thus bringing the two together into one unified whole (well... i guess that depends really, but you get the point). bottom line: if they're not interested in roleplaying, then you can't force them to roleplay. you have to interest them in other ways, such as by appealing to their interest in the other parts of the game. (other possibilities include DP modifiers or threshold modifiers even if they roleplay well in social situations, for example... they don't necessarily have to act it all out, but give them modifiers for trying certain angles to get people to do what they want... maybe someone is really timid, and shows it, which tells them "hey, intimidating this guy would work really well". maybe a specific person can't turn down a wager, no matter how bad, and they can get things easier that way. and so on.) |
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Jul 1 2006, 05:26 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Easy solution:
Make things dangerous. If they fear to be attacked, they will tell you what road to take, how they protect their comlink, what things they carry and so on. Another thing: If they let you decide things, just make desicions they would not make. If something bad happens, because you chose for them to do something silly, they will start to make their own desicions. BTW: Rembering something is a Willpower+Logic roll. But thats just a remark, as players in our group store everythig in their comlinks. |
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Jul 1 2006, 05:27 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,002 |
I would also remind them that you are doing the game with them for fun. I would just state that if I am going to all this work to present you with a game then they can at least help in keeping track of some of the work load themselves. Also if they dont keep track of there ammo then I would just say that they ran out during a critical shot.
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Jul 1 2006, 07:02 PM
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#5
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Jaid's right, but I disagree with him. Players will follow your lead if your're stubborn enough to stick to your guns. You need to really immerse them in the world by describing their surroundings, opponents and world in as vivid detail as possible. Make some of the detail significant so that they're required to pay attention (or forced to scramble to cover themselves if they ignore it), and keep some of the detail as just background colour. The more real you can make the world, the more attention they will pay it. In the example of the ammo or the fake SIN, hold your ground and don't accept "my character would remember" as an excuse. If the player can't remember how many bullets he has left when he has the leisurely time to keep track of every shot in a burst fire on a character record sheet, then I don't see why a character is magically able to in a series of firefights in an enemy complex. Sure, keeping track of ammunition may not be the most fun way to spend an everning, but without it then you as GM are entitled to say that they are down to their last fifteen shells. And if the response is that the character would have brought enough that this would never happen, then you as GM are entitled to say they run more slowly or lost a die on sneak tests because of all the spare clips. If you think this is going to lead to a confrontation with your players, then go by the book. Keep a notepad of how many they fired off in a row and then then go click as they leap out on the next security guard. As to the SIN's, similar applies. A fake SIN contains a great deal of information and if the player can't be bothered to remember a few details then who is to say that the character remembers all of it. If Lone Star pull a character over and their SIN says "Angus McAngus newly emigrated from Aberdeen but they forget to put on a bad Scottish accent, then they've just blown it (and a great role-playing opportunity). To be fair to the players though, we've only heard one side of this. Forgetting what the mission they're on is supposed to be is pretty bad so maybe you need to change your approach a little. In the case of the sewer map, saying "just take the quickest" is more or less a reasonable response on their part. I'd require my players to actually draw their intended path onto the map, but I wouldn't inflict a D&D style dungeon crawl on them when they know where they want to go. I'd summarise the journey until such time as something unexpected happened, e.g. the map says there should be a junction here, but it just seems to carry on, what do you want to do; or you can hear the sound of something splashing through the water but in the pipes, it's hard to tell which direction it's coming from. I'd cure the forgetting the mission part by hitting them with an over the top complexity on the next one. Force them into thinking about the mission, e.g. not all of it can be accomplished and they have to choose which parts matter most, which scientist to grab, etc. Basically, your players will always try to skip or gloss over those parts of the game that are boring and those parts of the game that are boring are the ones that don't have any great impact on the game or significance. E.g. a step by step repetition of which turning to take or crossing off three bullets each phase from the box of two hundred they brought with them. You need to put them in a situation where these things actually matter if you want players to engage in them. |
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Jul 1 2006, 07:33 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 1-July 06 Member No.: 8,817 |
Thank you all for your advice, I will try a few of these tips, and see how things go. :D
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Jul 1 2006, 07:33 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Don't give in tot he whining. It is not your job to act as the memories for the characters. If they don't write it down or remember it themselves, give them a memory roll. If they fail it they don't remember.
Don't let them travel through the sewers without telling you what route they take. For ammo you can either tell them they run out whenever it feels best to you, or track it yourself and let them run out when they should, which will probably be in the middle of a fight. Finally, if nothing else works, step down as GM. If you're having to babysit the players and are not having fun because of it, don't do it. Being a GM is a huge amount of work that you don't get paid for. If you're also not enjoying it, find another job. |
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Jul 2 2006, 02:14 PM
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#8
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
On the flip side to much of this, I'd choose my battles. The PCs don't want to have to count bullets and in my games, unless they bought ten bullets and nothing more or if they are on a prolonged mission without a chance to resupply, I do assume they buy new bullets to keep at the number originally on the character sheet. Why? Because it's not fun to count every bullet your gun has ever fired. It just isn't. In general I don't ask characters how they drive from point A to point B, and in truth, unless they have reason to suspect something odd, they're going to want to take the shortest route when traveling through the sewers. Choose what is really worth asking about. Tracking bullets on your person isn't fun unless you're in the middle of the jungle a million miles from civlization. Tracking bullets in the magazine is only marginally more interesting (and really slows stuff down in a table top game).
As a forgetful person, I forget character names (including my own) all the time, and most players lack the foresight to have a notepad. Have you provided notepads? If not, how can you expect them to keep notes? Give them the tools and they're more likely to use them. Yes, do trap the obvious routes (when that makes sense). Do give karma rewards for roleplaying and remembering details. Do make it clear that you have all these stacks of paper and it's too much work to keep track of everything they know too (since you have stuff written you haven't told them yet, and you don't denote what info is public and what isn't) and they are expected to keep their affairs in order. But don't be anal retentive unless it serves the story. Don't bother asking them a question if you already know the answer (again, with the sewers, what other route will they take? Of course they'll take the most direct route.) By avoiding questions no one is interested in, you won't be as upset that no one is taking responsibility for them. |
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Jul 2 2006, 07:39 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
Maybe they don't keep track of bullets because they lack the tools. I made custom character sheets with little boxes for ammo, just like the DnD character sheets. Use "q" on wingdings font and it makes the boxes for you. If you don't want to get as complex as a whole new character sheet (I went all out in photoshop), just make a guns and ammo sheet in MS Word.
I also like to have the players asigned jobs. One person handles initative, one person handles game notes, and one person handles a loot list (metagame jobs, the characters don't actually do this). It helps me out a TON with book keeping. I suggest that in the beginning of your next session, you tell your players that you need help with your book keeping and that GMing is a lot of work. Tell them about the three jobs, and ask them who wants to take on each job (let them volunteer, but don't start until the jobs are taken). Warn them that you're not going to allow the excuse of "my character would know that" unless it has been written down, so they should make sure to take good notes. Remind them that you can't micromanage everything their character knows, as well as your NPCs and the storyline. For your sewer map example, remember that this isn't DnD. There are no dungeon crawls - if nothing is going to happen then skipping to a part where something does happen is a reasonable expectation. If something was supposed to happen in those sewers and they tell you they take the quickest path, say something like "you're walking along what you think is the quickest path, the sewers are disgusting (blah blah, whatever description you want), as you turn around the corner you hear a noise 10 meters down the hall. What do you do?" I also wouldn't bother drawing maps unless there is a chance of combat where obsticles and distances really matter. Let them use their imagination to see what those sewers are like. If they ask you draw out a map anyway, adlib it. |
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Jul 3 2006, 02:03 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
I too am a bitter Gamemaster, but the level of PC hate in this thread is palpable. Remember, if the players are having a hard time with immersion and the suspension of disbelief then take a look in the mirror pal, because you're probably the problem.
My advice is to pay attention to the kind of game the players want to play, and try to give it to them. Maybe they want an action oriented game, and don't really think an exercise in note-taking is a fun way to spend an evening. Give them a game where the details don't really matter, or are handled for them. As was mentioned above, if you are in charge of the details then it's your prerogative to have them go against the PCs once in a while. Make a habit of it though, and you'll just be a bully GM with an empty gaming table - like it says in the BBB "Be Flexible!" & "Be Fair!" And lastly, Don't be a Player Hater! [That was uncalled for, but I couldn't resist...] |
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Jul 3 2006, 02:09 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I have to disagree on this. Making a tick mark on a post it doesn't slow the game down any, as you do it while the GM is rolling dodge / soak, or after your turn when the next player is going.
I can think of tons of situations that equate to a D&D dungeon crawl. Even just inching your way through a building on stealth mode is a dungeon crawl in that you're moving through hostile corridors and rooms witht he possibility of combat behind every door. Calling it a "dungeon crawl" is just a way to make it sound negative. Calling it an "infiltration" may ring better to your ears. :) |
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Jul 3 2006, 03:23 PM
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#12
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
The excitement is palpable :P Yes, it is easy for a player to simply tick it off and count how many rounds come in the magazine. But it's one more thing to remember, and it really is not interesting to most people. For the GM, who has to account for his five Vory grunts, thirteen ninjas and twenty six pleasure-slave midgets, plus for the six PCs who might just happen to "forget" a bullet here or there, it's a pain in the butt and isn't fun. I can count bullets because I run games online, but as a general rule, I only count bullets when autofire or very low capacity guns are in use (in other words, if I expect they'll run dry in three turns). Otherwise it's not worth the headache. |
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Jul 3 2006, 03:32 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Never had a problem with it as a GM or player, but if it ain't fun for your group, don't do it. My group generally prefers a reality count that's microscopically higher than a Rambo movie. Besides, you never get to use those reload actions if you're not counting bullets. :)
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Jul 3 2006, 03:45 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
I actually think my GM is getting tired of hearing "And as a free action, I eject my empty clip" after every other action in a firefight. But I stand by my earlier statement to the effect that the GM has to work with the players to create a game that everyone wants to play, rather than simply complain about how the players refuse to play his way, and ask how can he force them to do so. |
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Jul 3 2006, 04:01 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,750 |
The others have chimed in with great advice. Here's some from me: DON'T SWEAT THE SMALL STUFF. fake sin names? who cares. Npc names and mission objectives are all on you. You've gotta make the npc's memorable enough and the mission should be...well...the MISSION. The draw/rewards are such that they've got to want to be on it. Take a break from GM'ing and see if anyone wants to step up to the plate for a one or two-shot game. This will do a couple things, not the least of which is giving everyone a new perspective (you, the new gm, the other players) on the game. |
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