 3rd to 4th edition magic, Any reasoning behind the shift? |
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 Jul 2 2006, 04:08 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 8 Joined: 19-May 05 Member No.: 7,401  |
Hey guys,
I'm not sure if this has ever been addressed as I'm just getting back into the net resources for Shadowrun. But I'm curious as to how the changes in the magic system from third to fourth edition is going to be/being addressed. The first thought I had about it was that maybe we're all using the Unified Magical Theory that Schwartzkopf, Great Dragon at the University of Prague, was cooking up. Any thoughts on what the explanation is going to be, or if it's just going to be glossed over. |
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Jul 2 2006, 04:39 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
What changes in particular are you wondering about?
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Jul 2 2006, 05:22 AM
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#3
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Probably how hermetics are able to spontaneiusly summon spirits and have mentors, shamans are able to bind spirits, illusions have gone from being fairly easy to affect cameras (one success w/ Force 4-5 versus 3-4 successes now, on a system which generally lowers the total dice thrown at a test), the fact that the average Magic attribute is now roughly half what it was in 2060, with all the resulting changes to how large a ward the average mage can make, the fact that watchers can't actually watch anything anymore...
You get the idea. Personally I perfer the "shut-your-eyes-and-assume-that's-the-way-it-always-was" method, rather than trying to explain how the idiosyncrasies of the new system came to pass. |
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Jul 2 2006, 07:59 AM
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#4
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I'd shut my eyes to things like the affecting cameras. You could maybe explain the change in average magic attribute by saying that at the start of the magic cycle, only the truly gifted awoke to their power but now less powerful people are beginning to tune in as the cycle progresses. And magical testing procedures are now effective and also more common, leading to a lot of more borderline cases being noticed and trained. Can't help you with the spirits, though. I still think a lot of flavour and interesting character choice has been lost in 4th because of this change. |
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Jul 2 2006, 08:20 AM
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#5
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
6 was never the average magic attribute. It was simply the starting essence value of most characters. It is easy to loose magic points in SR3.
There are two types of changes to consider. There are fluff changes and there are mechanics changes. The big fluff changes can be attributed to UMT. Mechanics changes are a bit more complicated. The magic attribute is far more important in SR4 than it was in SR3. For practical purposes a single SR4 attribute point is worth far more than a single SR3 attribute point ever was. For that reason it isn't wise to compare average attributes. |
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Jul 2 2006, 08:52 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
UMT can handle some stuff. The rest, like how it's suddenly a lot harder to affect electronics and so on?
I'd suggest retcon. It Has Always Been Like This. No, Seriously. |
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Jul 2 2006, 01:36 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 28-June 06 Member No.: 8,800 |
Well, UMT is probably the only explanation for the new spirits rules.
Have someone win the '67 or '68 Nobel Prize for this one, probably a research team associated with Schwarzkopf. Have a lot of 'street level research' have helped them. For Magic Attribute : Remember that ALL Atrributes scaled with SR3 -> SR4, factor of 1.5. A Magic Attribute of 6 in SR3 SHOULD be the same as Magic 4 in SR4 (works fine with sorcery and conjuring, just adept rules suck some as costs weren't scaled to reflect this ...) For Illusion spells affecting tech : there really hasn't been so much of change, as cameras still record the illusion as desired (if it is physical) - the Object Resistance is only important to overcome if AN INTELLIGENT BEING observes the recorded image. If you don't overcome the Object Reseistance, the Observer won't be fooled - any automated system will still react to the illusion as if it was real. At least that's the way I tend to interpret that rule. |
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Jul 2 2006, 05:27 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I really wish that they at least would have added Spirits of Wood into the Hermetic tradition for the linked spirit type to go with Health spells. I can go with a modified five-element hermetic system far more easily than giving them Spirits of Man. :please:
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Jul 2 2006, 05:34 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
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Jul 2 2006, 06:44 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Maybe it's something to do with fall-out from all the magical chaos caused by the Year of the Comet? And/or maybe the new suspiciously-more-magical Matrix 2.0 having effects that resonate into the astral realm?
And/or "a wizard did it." ;) |
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Jul 3 2006, 11:26 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 28-June 06 From: Sol System, Earth, Europe, Germany, Saxony Member No.: 8,796 |
as the changes in magic are already discussed here, i have another question:
did someone ever wonder about the new manifesting? the topic was discussed heavyly over at the german SR-board. as the SR4-book tells, manifesting is like extending ones senses onto the physical plane. just some sort of reverse astral perception. the conclusion, that was drawn from that is, that a astrally projecting mage that manifests can now percive physically :eek: (and so read street-signs, newsletters, maybe even stuff on monitors). any ideas on that problem? or is may mage now a super spy, if there isn't any magic restitance? |
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Jul 3 2006, 03:39 PM
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#12
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I'll see your astral spy and raise you a ward and a security magician (and her bound spirit). Translation for the Sarcasm Impaired (i.e. Germans): I don't think it's a problem. I mean, a Rating 1 ward around sensitive areas will pretty much do the same thing a motion sensor will, since the ward's caster knows immediately when somebody starts monkeying with it. A hundred years ago, corporations and governments ponied up for physical security. Then the Internet came along and they ponied up for network security. When magic comes along, why wouldn't they pony up for magical security? |
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Jul 3 2006, 04:05 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 681 Joined: 28-February 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,319 |
Magical security issues aside, I'm not keen on the idea. The clear purpose of manifestation is to allow astrallly projecting characters to appear to and communicate with people on the physical plane. I don't think it should be a substitute for actually being there in the flesh.
Yes the rulebook does say it is "the opposite of astral perception—the extending of the senses onto the physical plane", but I think that's a bit too vague to conclude that you can sense as if you were physically there. Your physical senses are shaped by your meat body. If you are astrally perceiving or projecting, you are seeing not with your eyes but with your mind (the same goes for communication). Manifesting doesn't create physical eyes and ears for you (IMO) so why should you sense as if your meat body was present? |
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Jul 3 2006, 04:40 PM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,266 Joined: 3-June 06 From: UK Member No.: 8,638 |
I'd agree with Witness about manifesting. Its intent was to allow a magician to communicate with his team from the astral without having to spend a complex action reuniting with his body (it was complex in SR3, but I can find no mention of it in SR4, while manifesting is listed in SR4 as simple). It is also intuitive that your senses are restricted to the psychic nature of astral perception even when your ghost is present on the physical plane.
As far as changes in magical theory. There are bound to have been developments. In my campaign world the identification of "ghosts" as spirits of man and the subsequent development of ways to summon them resulted in a Nobel prize for Thaumaturgy for the hermetics that found it. The discovery of ways to summon spirits without binding them is also understandable. I think SR4 has abstracted the rules, allowing any explanation a player cares to come up with for why their particular character is magically active, rather than having mechanics listed for a set selection of magical philosphies. TBH the number of varying traditions listed in Magic in the Shadows was getting pretty top-heavy. I prefer the free-er system of "decide what spirits you summon for which kinds of spell domains, decide how you resist drain and then explain what philosophy and trappings you use to cast magic". There is the possibility of munchkins deciding to cast the power through the force of their minds with no physical indications of their power, but that's up to the GM to control. |
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Jul 3 2006, 04:44 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I expect a lot of these questions to be answered in Street Magic, with the rest left up to GM interpretation.
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Jul 4 2006, 04:04 AM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 10-February 06 Member No.: 8,247 |
Shouldn’t a mage’s manifestation capabilities be (on some level) like those of a spirit? Granted, I don’t imagine manifesting would provide the exact same perception that you would see from your meat body, but if a mage has trouble seeing while manifested your spirit should also have trouble with his perception during manifestation, which as far as I know isn't true.
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Jul 4 2006, 04:23 AM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Mages manifest, not materialize.
edit: got 'em backwards the first time around. |
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Jul 4 2006, 05:10 AM
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#18
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Strike that; reverse it. |
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 Jul 4 2006, 06:55 AM
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#19
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 28-June 06 From: Sol System, Earth, Europe, Germany, Saxony Member No.: 8,796 |
@Aaron: what makes you believe, i'm not fine with sarcasm? I even love to be cynic quite often. *g* (no harm was done) sure thing about your ward. and they're not even to expensive (your force 1 ward costs only 100 Nuyen). (and you can simply build that lab beneath the earth's surface and guard the elevator with a more powerful ward to keep projecting mages out of your stuff.) @Witness and ornot: i see (or saw) manifesting just as you do. for communicating purposes, mainly. the explanation by the german "official" rules-guy on the board kept quite hard to the book. and the arguments (in general) were also, that if you can make yourself seen by other via that psychic effect, perhaps the link offers in return input from their physical senses to make you get a glimpse at the physical world, too. on the idea of the manifesting spirits: good point. but: 1) there are no rules on how spirits perceive. neither when they manifest, nor when they materialize (in that case they're dual natured being and should see both planes at the same time). 2) nothing is said exactly, if dual-natured beings can "turn off" some of their perception. if they can't, dragons can't even watch trid! :D 3) i'm quite sure, that spirits can perceive the physical world. at least a spirit could read signs and stuff for you while you were projecting in earlier editions (AFAIR). but no explanations were made, how that worked exactly. staying by the rules as they are now, i don't see spirits reading ... (because of the "overlay" of the astral perception.) i really hope that this point (manifesting) is explained a little better in the "Street Magic". i know how it worked in the earlier editions, but who knows, maybe it was intended to be changed to this. |
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Jul 4 2006, 09:09 AM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Going by RAW, SR4 explicitly states (p.182) that Astral Perception is not an "overlay". While astrally percieving "it is not possible to see both (planes) at the same time, though almost everything in physical space is reflected on the astral, albeit without detail". Since a manifest form is dual-natured and continually astrally percieving it is still unable to read and make out details on the physical even when manifest.
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Jul 4 2006, 01:30 PM
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#21
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
wrong ... Manifestation is most definitely not dual-natured (and that's the reason why that "can be affected by mana-based effects"- part is a pain in the ass, when it comes to planes and their barriers) ...
The question is: Provided that Manifestation really was something like astral perception in the reverse (ignoring some limiting factors that come right after the sentence that says so), a magician then could switch between two forms of perception and then end up with the same dilemma a SR4 (true) dual-being (like a shifter) has: Accodring to the rules on dual-beings, the limitations of astral perception apply. With active Astral perception (which includes all 5 senses *touch, smell, vision, hearing, taste*) you cannot physically see. Yet a dual-being can shift his perception => It's astrally active without being able to perceive it's (astral) surroundings => You could kill a physically seeing shifter without it noticing any of the danger or harm. Errata need there: True dual-beings should be able to perceive both planes simoutlaniously just as in previous editions- As for the projecting mage that manifests: He'd be astrally active without being astrally active ... Nice contradiction. Solution: Get rid of that "astral perception in reverse" and the "extending of senses into the physical world" (since you correctly stated that while astrally perceiving you still can see the physical world with astral perception) ... And to reinstall the barrier between planes, remove that part about being subject to mana-based effects on the physical plane while manifesting ... |
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Jul 4 2006, 01:41 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
The problem is with ignoring those limits is that the limit of not being able to target Physical spells implies that you in fact do not have a real presense on the Physical plane. Ergo physical sight is in no way assured. My understanding of it is that it remains a mental only connection with living creatures. P.S. If Street Magic doesn't cover in more detail I think it is a candidate for the FAQ to help people understand it. |
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Jul 4 2006, 02:21 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 28-June 06 From: Sol System, Earth, Europe, Germany, Saxony Member No.: 8,796 |
that "astral perception in reverse" was surely one of the lesser good ideas of the author(s).
that "extending senses to the physical plane" could still be kept. but maybe it has to explained a little better. one could (just a proposion) say that the hearing senses are more more linked to the physical plane, because with the (solely) psychic connection to the people around, you can understand them clearly now (otherwise sounds are blurred, according to RAW). but yes, some sort of FAQ (or even better, an official errata) cleaning up that "mess" would be great. (and i know: "so much to be done, so little time!" but well, hope is always a good thing :) ) |
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Jul 4 2006, 03:34 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Oops! That's what happens when I post near screaming kids. :) Fixed it. |
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Jul 4 2006, 03:57 PM
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#25
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,312 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
Yet it isn't totally out of the way. For spellcasting you need two things: LOS and being on the right plane. Despite what Synner said, a manifesting mage is not dual natured (this is due to some of the limitations that come along with manifestation) thus he couldn't meet the requirements even if manifestation were to provide some sort of physical sight (still leaving the problems with no simultanious physical vision along with active astral perception).
Mine as well ... I'm a traditionlist there ... I even go so far to say that even with a link to living creatures the barrier between planes should make it impossible to affect either side with spells => A manifesting mage should not be subject to mana-based effects on the physical plane, just as physical beings are unaffected by mana-based effects on the astral (mana-based effects that are dual are a different can of worms)
Errata is my vote there ... |
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