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> Fake SINs, How much is your real info?
Samaels Ghost
post Jul 4 2006, 05:52 AM
Post #26


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Black Ops agents using Fake SINs would be fine to check into. If queries into the authenticity of said SINs were sent back to the SINs repoisitory such queries would be redirected to special clerks who are there to cover for the Black Ops agents.

For that matter if the UCAS uses a Black Ops agent they can create Fake SINs better than any shadowrunner could get his hands on and be sure that either the data provided is flawless or that anyone checking into a flase-positive during , let's say, a border crossing would be covered by the SIN agency.

"WHat's that? Joe Spysworth's info doesn't check out? What exactly is the problem? Retina scan, eh? DNA too? Well let me talk to my superior, I'll call you right back."
----1 hour and a little data propagation later----
"Hi, this is Jill DataClerk from the UCAS SIN registry. Yes, i've double checked his information and it seems as if you must be mistaken. Please double check. Yes I'll hold.............It's correct now? Isn't that just hinky? Oh well, Deus and all that, you understand. Have a nice day and don't hesitate to call back if you have any further difficulties."

It's the government, please.
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Drraagh
post Jul 4 2006, 08:34 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Drraagh @ Jul 3 2006, 09:06 PM)
This idea came to me when I was watching the Highlander TV show. How can someone live forever, but never leave a trace when police, public people, everyone knows who he is.

However, in their defense, they had an organization dedicated to hiding them, as well as the fact that they could go live in the middle of nowhere for a while. But todasy with DNA, RNA, fingerprints, etc.

how about the fact that they can temporarily die with no side effects? that might help.

Yes, but fingerprints are unduplicatable, so two people with the same fingerprints and DNA and retinal scans and all that would be hard to pass off as two different people just because they had died. Though I suppose you could always remove one SIN from the system since you don't need to use it anymore. But there is still a chance someone could remember something.

You need to have, as has been mentioned before, at least consider what sort of verification this SIN is going to go through. Will it just be a simple password check, will it be retinal, DNA, voice... All these things could be set to specific SINs with a voice mask, retinal duplicator, even a Gattica style blood pack. So that way, each SIN is different. Even the fingerprint remapper stuff they have, so each SIN has a different set of prints you can match.

Here is one thing I was thinking about as a way to change identities if you're up the reek without a paddle and don't have any other options.. There are a few websites that talk about this, but the MP3 Question of the Week from 'Quirks and Quarks' at here talks about what DNA type would come from someone who just had a blood transfusion; donor or host. Generally, nothing would change from a normal test, because anything carrying DNA dies within a few hours to a day or two at most, and then new ones are built from bone marrow with your DNA. But what if you get a full bone marrow transplant? It would be difficult, expensive, and all that, but it should, as I understand biology, give you a different DNA profile. So, if you've got an agency who has your DNA, they could link it to any SIN using that, even if you were to change SINs. So, maybe this could work. I don't know enough about magic to know about material links and how that would work.
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ornot
post Jul 4 2006, 01:27 PM
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@drraagh ooh! ooh! I know this one!
If you try to give someone a blood transfusion and it's not in the same blood group as them then bad stuff happens, and they frequently die. You've heard of blood groups A, B, AB and O right? Someone with the rare blood group AB can accept blood from all the other groups, someone with the (more common) bloodgroup O can donate blood to all the groups, A and B are restricted to their own bloodgroup and O. Then there are a bunch of other blood factors like the rhesus factor which complicate matters. But the important antigens are A and B (O is just an absence of A and B).

Thing is, these antigens are on your red blood cells, which are quite special since they have no DNA. Not having a nucleus leaves more room for haemaglobin for oxygen transport. You need white blood cells (also known as Leukocytes) to obtain a DNA fingerprint. So unless you collect some foreign white blood cells in your blood sample for DNA profiling you'll get the original host DNA profile. If a significant number of white blood cells was introduced you're quite likely to find a chimera, that is a profile made up from both DNAs. (As an interesting aside chimeras are more common than you would think, with some people having quite different DNA fingerprints from tissue to tissue due to alterations in foetal DNA or even the fusing of seperately fertilised eggs and such like).

When you change someones bone marrow you no longer need to worry about blood group, since you'll be changing all their red blood cells anyway. You do have to worry about MHC receptors, however. The Major Histocompatability Complex (MHC you see. Clever huh?) is found on all your cells (except red blood cells) and is the means by which white blood cells recognise self from non-self. The MHC will also express samples of proteins made within the cell. If the white blood cells fail to recognise the protein it must be foreign, suggesting that there is a virus, bacterium or similar within the cell. I probably haven't made myself very clear, but the gist is this: To receive a successful bone marrow transplant you need to share the MHC with the donor. For this degree of similarity your genetic code needs to be pretty similar, and since a DNA fingerprint doesn't match up your entire genome, just certain variable loci, you'll probably wind up with the same genetic fingerprint.

In response to the comment about ritual magic, I'd point you toward the RAW which states that to cast ritual magic you need a spotter watching the target. If someone seeking you out wants to cast ritual magic on you they need to find you first. As for material links, I think they took that out of SR4.
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Samaels Ghost
post Jul 4 2006, 11:34 PM
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Okay, while there is a lot of info here I don't feel like my question has been answered fully.
ES Sparky said it best when he asked:
QUOTE
So what good is a fake SIN if your biometric data doesn't match? Or is part of the fake SIN process laying your info onto a SIN that it wouldn't otherwise be associated with.

ALSO

If you have the negative quality Citizen SINner and you get a fake SIN, would you then have matching sets of biometric data that would raise flags in the CC's database?


This was exactly my question. This was answered by:

QUOTE
1. Working your biometric data into the files is part of making the SIN.

2. Yes, this can actually happen - though not very often, as Corps and Governments use fake SINs, too, for their Intel and BlackOps personal. These problems normally arise when you use a fake SIN in a check and it gets flagged as Questionable or True Fake - in that case a full search is ran for all SINs matching in Biometric Data, and flagged as Questinable.
Any SIN flagged that way will get a thorough investigation ...


Okay, that seems reasonable. So does:
QUOTE
yeah, basically i figure you can have biometric data attached to multiple SINs becuase it's not "here's my biometric data, now scan every database in the world to get my identity", it is instead "here's my SIN, now check if the biometric data in the SIN matches mine".

IOW, it works because it takes too much time to scan the entire world's records of biometric data, so they just look up the SIN file and compare the biometric data it says you're supposed to have with the biometric data of the person whose SIN it is supposed to be.

and of course, this assumes that biometric data is required... it may not always be...


But my problem is that in-between time, not just when you use your SIN and it's checked.
That SIN Registry HAS to be checked. It makes no sense that it isn't.

And if Mister Blackops has trouble with his government/corp issued fake SIN than queries as to the authenticity of his fake SIN would be routed to his government/corp and everything would pretty much be covered up. Roving Clerk Agent programs wouldn't be allowed to check on BlackOps Fake SINs or instructed to pass them over. Or maybe the Agents do report the BlackOps SINs but report it to people who are instrusted to ignore such inconsistencies in regards to specific BlackOps SINs. i don't think duplicate information on several SINs would be a problem for those guys though. They have agencies to erase old/used SINs from other missions, replace them and have a new one ready after BlackOps guy comes back from a mission. There isn't a need for duplicate info in their SINs.

This is all easily referenced data we're talking about here. There's no real reason I can think of that this information can't be checked in between uses. Besides the "its a game. close your eyes and ignore it" reason which I don't particularily like.

Plus, my example of Grand Larceny guy wasn't neccesarily meant to stress the "I'm in really big trouble" part. It was the getting a new SIN part that I was more concerned about. It was bringing up the duplicate biometric information situation that I have yet to justify in my head.

Someone please review what I've written above and put me in my place. I just want this to make some sense. Or maybe I'm going to have to have government agents knocking at my 'runners' doors asking for bribes or bring them in after their SINs are compromised. That's fine by me. Makes things interesting. :vegm:
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Phobos
post Jul 5 2006, 02:24 AM
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Half (three-quarters) the problem is that any Country/Corp will not usually share the data stored in it's SIN registry with other Countires/Corps. Second, the only central SIN Registry is operated by the Corporate Court (who will not run any 'unncessary' checks as a matter of policy). This usually prevents you from finding out if someone in your Country/Corp's registry is also registered elsewhere. So, if you're smart and your different SINs have different nationalities (e.g. UCAS, CalFree, SSC, CAS for someone living in Seattle) there's little risk ... well, about none ... that your other SINs will be compromised if one is. That would only happen if two or more parties cooperated in hunting you ("who did you screw over to to warrent THAT ? Get away from me ... hey, I don't know you at all ... no clue who you are, really ... Phone Prank! Phone Prank! <click>").

If you have a number of different SINs with the same entity, you usually should take some precautions : different sets of fake fingerprints and retina modifications (cyber or contact lenses), masks (yeah, oldfashioned disguise), voice modulation ... enough effort that there really IS a difference in the data. If not, well, yes, then you could fall prey to a random check.

Now, how much effort would such a check be ?
Let's take a small-sized country or AAA Corp with 10 million entries.
It would take 50,000,005,000,000 comparisons to complete it.
So a computer rated in Tera FLOPS (pretty much any mainframe in 2070) with enough running memory (pretty much any mainframe in 2070) could do the taks in a few seconds.
Even checking the registry of a highly populated country would not take more than a day ... probably about an hour.

So, yes, any GM could use this to enforce the players take precautions. Not necessarily a good idea for a newbie group (so it's not in Core Rules), but a good idea to prevent an experienced one from getting lazy.
In 2050, processing power and memory were still an issue, but since the 60s ... yeah, 'running out of excuses :D
No, seriously, yes, you can make it an issue, but make sure your players know it and can prepare for it - or you can simply assume that they take all the necessary precautions and let it slip.
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