Magic Resistance House Rule, Just a thought... Options

[DrowVampyre]

I was just thinking about how everyone says magic is so powerful, and what I've seen in game, and had an idea for a new house rule (new to me, anyway - someone else might have suggested it already).

Seeing as the more technologically advanced things get, the more resistant they are to magic, how about a scaling resistance threshold for characters who have less than 6 Essence? Like this:

Essence 6.00-4.50 = Threshold 1
Essence 4.49-3.00 = Threshold 2
Essence 2.99-1.50 = Threshold 3
Essence 1.49-0.00 = Threshold 4

I haven't actually tried this or anything, but it seems like it might work...

[Ancient History]

<scritch, scritch> Is there a particular reason that the Magic Resistance edge/quality isnae good enough for ye boyo? After all, only cyberzombies are invincible magic proof man-machines.

[ornot]

Even if I were to use some kind of essence based magic resistance I would change the thresholds you have stated. Requiring an extra 4 hits from a mage to affect most street sams is IMHO crippling.

I agree with Ancient History on this front.

[James McMurray]

Extr defense dice would be better than increased threshold. I think the threshold change is too big of a hit to mages. Have the countermagic dice always be rolled (even against helpful spells) and you might do o.k.

I think it's better to have in character answers to magic instead of out of character ones, but that's just me.

[DrowVampyre]

I don't actually have a problem with magic the way it is, but a lot of people seem to, apparently because it's almost impossible to counter magic without magic, while there are lots of ways to avoid taking serious damage from gunfire and the like. But yeah, magic resistance works just fine. This was basically just something to say "you're more metal than man now, so magic doesn't affect you as much" so maybe getting magic resistance for varyine Essence levels would work for the same thing.

Ok, so there is 1 thing that irritates me about the way magic works. For some reason, low Essence makes it harder to use health spells, but all others work just fine. Seems to me it should be an all or none deal...

[Kyoto Kid]

...Whether it's threshold or extra dice, something does need to be done to give mundanes a bit more defence beyond the attribute roll. Having to rely on a good quality (eg "Edge") alone just doesn't cut it.

As I have stated before, it is much easier for a mage to defend against mundane attacks than it is for a mundane to defend against magical attacks. Our playtesting sessions have proved this time and time again.

[Jaid]

well, if you're lucky the mage will have less perception skill.

so make sure you have lots of ways to not be seen... smoke grenades, camo gear, cover, etc.

sure, none of those work against a mage you don't know is there... but then, i mundane with an assault rifle, aiming for +4 DV, and taking his time to aim is gonna ruin your day too if you don't know they're there.

[Samaels Ghost]

But how do you hide from a Mage with astral perception? You stand out way more

[Kyoto Kid]

[Crusher Bob]

Areas effect spells are still limited by visibility: P 173

[DrowVampyre]

Hmm...another thought. Instead of (or in addition to, if this is still kinda weak) increased dice based on Essence, how about having 2 rolls like mundane combat does? The roll as it stands now would be like the dodge roll, and you'd soak with Charisma, perhaps? I dunno, just seems like magic is overly strong (and I play a mage...).

Also, for mundane characters, why take the PJSS? Go for the Ultimax packing EX-Ex. It'll bust through their armor just as good as the PJSS (-3 AP as opposed to -1) and now you can hit them with bursts...

[nezumi]

I actually think this is a very neat idea. However, I'd probably decrease the effectiveness of it. Essence 2-6 - no impact, essence 0-2 - +1 to threshold (at least for testing purposes). I like the idea of cyber being antithetical to magic, or at least pursuing the cybered concept to offer SOME benefits over magic (in the whole 'magic can hurt the sammie but not vice versa' debate).

[Kyoto Kid]

[James McMurray]

[nezumi]

I would use these numbers in preference to the healing spell modifiers. The healing spell modifiers are basically an example of how we can screw over people who use cyberware once more without giving any appreciable return.

[Phobos]

Um, just a thought : didn't the Heal modifiers represent the fact that you can only heal the meat, not the machine ? and that the damage system was abstract to the extend that meat and machine were assume to be equally damaged ?


Okay, Original Topic : there are many way to argue how Cyber effects Magic :
For any Damage effect you could either say that the Cyber prevented damage as it can not that easily damage it; OR you could say it made you more fragile as the magic damages only the remaining living parts, which is more probable to be lethal; OR you could say more cyber means the link between body and soul weakens, making it more difficult to effect either (though that might/should result of a loss of CHA, INT, WIL, and INI, too); OR you could just say cyber makes you more alien - different, but not more or less vulnarable.

Same base problem, other desriptions for other spell categories : more cyber means more vulnarable to illusions as you're even more cut of form your natural intuiton and astral senses ? Manipulation : the cyber detachment could you lose control more easily ? Health : meat & machine problem ...


Sure, I can see the problem with magic overpowering mundane, but both setting and common sense take an other aprroach : if you're playing a mundane group, hire an NPC-Mage to cover when needed, or take special precautions - or hire only those people less subjective to magic than normal (Magic Resistence).
IMHO MR-effects of cyber makes no sense with the setting : dragons and other awakened threats would be much less frightenening - not because they'd be much worse fighting, but you'd rob them of their true weapons : Illusion and Manipulation spells.
And you'd leave a door wide open for the CAS, UCAS & Ares Force equipping troops with full-cyber and reclaiming the NAN - no more troops fucked up by native shamans :D

... or make it all 'Special Case' ... lol ... Direct Combat - YES, Indirect Combat - umm ... NO, Illusion, physical - probably less ?, Illusion, mana-based - maybe more, Detection - ??? ...


Just a view different aspects of the problem, and far from complete.

[nezumi]

I'd never heard that concept, and it's interesting. However I'm not sure how then first aid would be equally effective for cyber and meat. Anyway, by the same token, it should then be harder to cast spells on people because you're casting aggressive spells on the cyber and the meat. I don't see why mending steel is so very tough when burning it is just as easy as before.

[Phobos]

Well, basically you're right - it would/should/might be a difference if there's lot of hard-to-damage cyber ... and how the damage is dealt (mana spell, physical spell, indirect combat spell)

Or you could argue that by spending essence, the cyber becomes a part of your body and uses the bodies sympathetic vulnerability to magic - because of it being part of you, it takes damage when you do.

I'm really not sure what would best reflect the setting and still maintain some sort of game balance - I guess you would have to decide the effects of cyber seperately for every spell, but that is quite some amount of work and complications ... and even the best rule would probably open a few loopholes for cybersammies and/or mages to better exploit the other.

:shrug:sorry I can't make a more constructive comment - but to make even a good educated guess I'd need much more detailed information on HOW magic works in SR than ever published ... and I really hope that will never come, as I'd probably throw it away in disgust :D

[Dv84good]

Just a note to I have been using a spell theshold using body + will + essence then average the sum and buying successes, round up or down. So basically it looks like b + w+ e/3/4. It will general give a modest theshold of one but I feel it evens thing for mundane especially with the mental manipulation spells.

[Lilt]

What's next? Not allowing manna spells to affect characters with less than 1 essence? Characters who still have essence still have souls and auras meaning that they have an affinity to magic which inanimate objects do not.

Although I do agree that some reductions of this nature might be logical, I'd save it until the character really shouldn't be alive any more. IE: Cyberzombies, whenever the rules come out for them, should get resistance just like they did in previous editions.