Essence Loss and Health Spells

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Essence Loss and Health Spells

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knasser

Jul 6 2006, 06:11 PM

Post #1

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QUOTE (Samael's Ghost)

I really don't think that other "health" spells are affected by Essence Loss because no other positive or negative spell is affected by it. However, both Mundane healing and Magical healing are both hindered by Essence Loss, leading me to believe that only the Heal spell is affected.

Making it apply to all health spells wanders dangerously into object resistance territory where all cybered sams with tons of ware shrug off spells as an aded bonus for being bad asses, but thats another topic entirely...

I've branched this off from the Increase Attribute thread as it's really its own little topic. I searched through the archives and only found some very brief discussion of this.

I'm surprised that so many people think that the essence loss penalty only applies to the Heal spell and not all health spells. I think this is a hang over from previous editions where this was the case, but looking at SR4 without preconceptions I think it's pretty clear.

I've got three reasons why I think it applies to all Health spells.

Firstly, the rule about -1 die per essence point lost is placed in the Health spells general rules. If it only applied to one particular spell then it should be listed under that spell.

Secondly, if it only applies to a few of the spells, e.g. Heal, Cure Disease, then there would have to be greater clarity as to which ones. So it seems pretty obvious the rule applies to Health spells in general.

Thirdly, it fits the fluff, imo. If the health spells target the living body then you're going to have less effect when that body is partially comprised of mechanical implants. Example: Resist Pain may be less useful to those whose muscles are replaced with synthetic fibres. Decrease Attribute is going to be less effective when some of the subject's body is made up of fuel-cell powered pistons. If you take Health spells to affect living beings, then those with replaced parts, nerves substituted with artificial substitutes, etc., are inevitably going to be harder to get the same effect from.

The game balance affect is going to be that enemy samurai become harder to affect with negative health spells (not a big issue as there are plenty of other weapons in a magician's arsenal); that it is harder to grant the party samurai some bonus attribute points (already costly with high augmented attributes); and that when you absolutely have to pull off a Detox to save the Sammie's life it becomes a genuine act of drain-inducing heroics.

So what I want to see, is am I really the only person who thinks this way, or are you all actually in agreement with me on this and I've got the wrong impression off a minority?

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jul 6 2006, 06:18 PM Post #2
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	If I recall the wording correctly it's something along the lines of "magical healing suffers a penalty on low essence targets." That isn't anywhere near the exact wording, but I'm pretty sure that it specifies healing spells, not health spells. Where it's located doesn't seem to mean that much to me. IIRC the healing spells themselves also have the dice penalty calculated in, while the rest of the health spells do not. It seems pretty clear to me, or at least to the rules as I remember them, that the penalty only applies to healing spells.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jul 6 2006, 06:24 PM Post #3
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	That will still leave some ambiguity to which spells are the healing spells, possibly. Obviously Heal is a healing spell and Decrease Attribute isn't. What about something like detox? It doesn't heal boxes of damage, but it makes you healthier. If that's the way it was meant to be applied, they need to be more explicit about where it does and doesn't apply. If it was meant to apply to all health spells then they used poor wording. Sounds to me like errata material, or at least FAQ.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jul 6 2006, 06:26 PM Post #4
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	I think they were explicit. The Heal and Treat spells mention the penalty, the rest don't.

knasser

Jul 6 2006, 06:31 PM

Post #5

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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 6 2006, 01:26 PM)

I think they were explicit. The Heal and Treat spells mention the penalty, the rest don't.

Treat? This is SR4.

There's no reference to the effect of essence loss under any of the health spells. Only under the general heading.

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jul 6 2006, 06:32 PM Post #6
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Oh. Well all right then. :-) I don't have my book in front of me, so I guess it's more clear than I'm remembering. edit: Oh-ho! Treat!? I knew there was a reason I didn't remember that spell in SR4. What are we even talking about anymore?

stevebugge

Jul 6 2006, 06:35 PM

Post #7

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QUOTE

Hi,

>Do the rules and limitations set out in the spell category
>descriptions apply to all spells of that category?
>
>For example while playing last night our group had a disagreement
>about the application of the low essence dice penalty for health spells.
>
>A mage wanted to cast an increase initiative spell on a character
>with less than one essence, as GM I said fine, but you lose 5 dice
>because she has an essence of .4.
>
>He said that only applies to the Heal spell, this spell doesn't heal
>damage it's unaffected.
>
>I told him no the rules set out in the spell category descriptions
>apply to all spells of that category.
>
>So which interpretation is the correct one?

You are correct, that Essence penalty applies to all Health spells.

:: Rob Boyle :: Shadowrun Developer for FanPro LLC info@shadowrunrpg.com ~ www.shadowrunrpg.com "There are no official answers--only official opinions."

I had to ask Rob about this a couple of months back, luckily I saved the email :)

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Jul 6 2006, 06:41 PM Post #8
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Great, thanks steve. So I guess the word "healing" should probably be errata'ed to "Health" in that description at the beginning of the section.

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jul 6 2006, 06:42 PM Post #9
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	Sorry, gamer flashbacks. It happens when you get to be my age. :) I'll check the book when I get home, as apprently I was totally full of it on my earlier post. :) steve, thanks for posting the official opinion. ;)

Jaid View Member Profile	Jul 6 2006, 10:19 PM Post #10
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813	i personally assumed this was their replacement for all the "increase cybered [attribute]" and similar spells.

knasser

Jul 7 2006, 05:05 PM

Post #11

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

Sorry, gamer flashbacks. It happens when you get to be my age. :)

I'll check the book when I get home, as apprently I was totally full of it on my earlier post. :)

steve, thanks for posting the official opinion. ;)

Hey, no biggie. I'd gotten the impression from other threads that people generally thought the essence loss penalty only applied to the Heal spell. It's good to find some back up on this.

Thanks for all replies.

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