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> Atheism in 2070, How do you defend it?
James McMurray
post Jul 7 2006, 01:26 PM
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With the advent of magic, spirits that look like angels, miracle faith healers, and hundreds of other trappings of religion coming to life, how does an atheist in 2070 defend his faith?

On the flip side, with so many unbelievers gaining favors from spirits and creating miracles, how does a theist defend his faith?

Edit: Any responses I make arguiong against a specific belief posted here are purely from the perspective of a 6th world dissenter. If someone wishes to seriously discuss religion please PM me, as that's not what this thread is about (although I assume it will eventually get there, burn down, and be locked away).
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emo samurai
post Jul 7 2006, 01:30 PM
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For your problems with faith, denial. The same as in any other age.

People dying? "God's testing us."

People getting better? "God made him better."

People stink too much? "The good stink keeps the devil away."

Anybody following your god is a good man; anybody else is a sinner.

As for atheists, everybody knows that magicians are born pretty much at random, and they can draw their power from anything, God, Bear, or squiggly lines drawn with expensive "magical" chalk. I would say that the sheer variety of faiths being vindicated should be the best evidence of the lack of a single God, since whatever God that may give priests the ability to heal and summon firy angels of death and love gave equal or greater power to insect shamans and blood mages.
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James McMurray
post Jul 7 2006, 01:43 PM
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It can definitely be viewed as a lack of a specific God, but how do you take the step from that to the lack of any god?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 7 2006, 01:49 PM
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I cannot fathom how SR magic, which makes no distinction whatsoever between the religious and the non-religious, could in any way be construed as evidence for or against a god. Clearly supernatural things exist in SR, or at least in the SR world there has to have been a re-definition of "supernatural", but that doesn't necessitate gods of any kind. All magic seems likely to do is make proponents and opponents of certain types of religions even more rabid.

($20 says this thread will be full of non-SR-related flaming within 3 days.)
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Tanka
post Jul 7 2006, 01:56 PM
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QUOTE (emo samurai)
everybody knows that magicians are born pretty much at random

What about Jane Christian, who fully believes that anyone who casts and proclaims to be Christian is doing God's work, and those who don't are using tricks given to him by Satan?

The really smart ones know this, sure. But John and Jane Average don't. They may think there's some grand conspiracy to who gets magical powers and who doesn't.
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James McMurray
post Jul 7 2006, 02:06 PM
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Yeah, I know there's no such thing as proof on either side of the debate. I'm not so much looking for proof as I am for arguments.

Atheists: everybody gets magic, even some atheists, therefor they can't be gifts from the gods. As such, it's possible that miracles in the past were due to mana spikes, not divine intervention. If that's the case then the entirety of many religious texts are false, and therefor God must be false.

Theists: the Jane Christian stance would probably be a common one, as would "God works in mysterious ways, we can't know why he would have given non-Christians magic. Perhaps it is to lead them to the proper path."

What else?

QUOTE
($20 says this thread will be full of non-SR-related flaming within 3 days.)


I think if it lasts 3 days it'll be a miracle, and therefor proof that God exists and wants this thread to thrive. ;)
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Grogs
post Jul 7 2006, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
It can definitely be viewed as a lack of a specific God, but how do you take the step from that to the lack of any god?

The atheist would simply view the magic, spirits, etc as the cause rather than the effect, i.e., the ancient peoples encountered that rare spirit that was able to manifest in the 5th world and wrote about it in their holy books, or tales passed down through the milennia about spirits, mages, etc were the basis for those beliefs.
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nezumi
post Jul 7 2006, 02:14 PM
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For some reason I'm having difficulties seeing why atheism would in any way be hobbled by the reintroduction of magic in Shadowrun. Maybe someone can better explain to me why a hermetic mage somehow feels his power is from God or evidence of God.

Organized religion may take a hit because all of a sudden anyone can do "miracles". I'd have to assume organizations like the Roman Catholic Church would approach magic with a lot of caution, with a lot of bishops espousing the idea that magic isn't from God specifically, at least no more than any gift is. Rather, I think the RCC would try to divorce itself from thaumaturgy, to avoid being a victim of the sudden shifts in public opinion.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 7 2006, 02:16 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
I'm not so much looking for proof as I am for arguments.

I don't see how irreligious magic creates or requires any real change in the reasonable arguments on either side of this particular debate. It'll create a whole host of unreasonable arguments, of course, but such things usually only serve to radicalize people who had already chosen what they believe/don't believe in.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
Atheists: everybody gets magic, even some atheists, therefor they can't be gifts from the gods. As such, it's possible that miracles in the past were due to mana spikes, not divine intervention. If that's the case then the entirety of many religious texts are false, and therefor God must be false.

People who do not currently believe those miracles happened would quite likely not believe they happened even if there was magic in the world. That they are works of fiction is a simpler assumption than that there were mana spikes.
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James McMurray
post Jul 7 2006, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
It'll create a whole host of unreasonable arguments, of course

Those are the things I'm looking for.
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JesterX
post Jul 7 2006, 02:21 PM
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One could argue that the source of magic comes from the same place: Astral. And magic is nothing more than a manipulation of mana. Should it be shamanic, hermetic or religious, it's all the same after all.

You can even argue that totems/angels are only a metaphysical representation of your own mind and ideas.

You can also argue that totems/passions (Earthdawn)/powerful free spirits ARE gods.

I don't think that it proves that god exist however. I just think it proves that there *might* be something elsewhere that we don't know about.

The real question might be: Do you believe that god has something to do with the metaplanes? Does the metaplanes inhabitants were created by god (or many gods?) Does the metaplanes inhabitants can be considered as gods when they enter our world?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 7 2006, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
Those are the things I'm looking for.

"I can do magic without god so there is no god!" (Non Sequitur)
"zOMG all majique is from teh devil!" (Fallacy of WTF?!)
That sort of thing. Not really worth thinking too hard about.
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Kagetenshi
post Jul 7 2006, 02:24 PM
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Technomancers are proof enough that God does not exist.

~J
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 7 2006, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (JesterX)
Does the metaplanes inhabitants can be considered as gods when they enter our world?

Powerful Free Spirits certainly could be. After all, they grow more powerful when people donate them Karma, which means creating a religion where they are god, or the one and only prophet, would make perfect sense. Certain existing religions, centering on the belief just about everything has its own god/spirit/thingie, might also consider metaplane-dwellers as god-equivalents or whatever (though that's not saying much).

The Abrahamic religions would beg to differ, of course. Metaplanar beings do not really fit into the faiths of omnipotent, omniscient creator gods.
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James McMurray
post Jul 7 2006, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Technomancers are proof enough that God does not exist.

~J

How so?
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Kalvan
post Jul 7 2006, 02:48 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jul 7 2006, 09:24 AM)
Technomancers are proof enough that God does not exist.

~J

How so?

This is how so
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 7 2006, 02:51 PM
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You need a few upper case S's in that url.
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Backgammon
post Jul 7 2006, 03:01 PM
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Belief, whether you believe in a god or wether you believe there is no good, is not a rational position. It has nothing to do with logic. Therefore, you can add whatever the hell you like to the argumentation pile, it won't matter. People will believe whatever they like, and invent whatever justification they want for it.

It's partially related, but (and this is the super accelerated version of the story) recently scientists brain scanned subjets who either strongly supported Kerry or strongly supported Bush. In both case, when faced with argumentation against their beloved leader, the scans showed that the arguments were not processed as arguments. Basically, belief shuts down the part of your brain that makes you listen to arguments. You simply reject them out of hand and think up excuses to justify your positions.

Hence, I submit that the Awakening did not threathen any beliefs.
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SL James
post Jul 7 2006, 04:31 PM
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Except to break up or destabilize the faith in quite a few religious groups, most notably being the Roman Catholic Church...

There is the description of psionics, which is pretty much areligious if not atheistic when it comes to the source of their abilities. Another is a coldy scientific treatment of mana as a third state of nature (both and neither mass and energy), or reverse entropy, or some many of intersecting dimensions (which it kin of actually is), or genetic mutation. Or... There aren't people lacking for explanations for magic that don't involve a deity or deities.
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Jul 7 2006, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
Atheists: everybody gets magic, even some atheists, therefor they can't be gifts from the gods. As such, it's possible that miracles in the past were due to mana spikes, not divine intervention. If that's the case then the entirety of many religious texts are false, and therefor God must be false.

"If a may be false, then b, c, etc. must be false"

That's a hell of a logic jump, but one that's not uncommon in pro-atheist arguments even today - all it needs is a blatantly misapplied reference to Occam's Razor. ;)

Funny how the two groups who most strongly argue the requirement of a 100% literal interpretation of all religious texts are loony fundies...and atheists. :D

Anyway...back on topic.

How about this:

The current (in SR) existence of magic does not comment on the veracity of any religious beliefs...though it does offer an explanation of how certain claims, previously discounted as legends, may actually have been possible.


(spell check wanted to change fundies to fondues...heh.)
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jul 7 2006, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
[...] though it does offer an explanation of how certain claims, previously discounted as legends, may actually have been possible.

None of the large monotheistic religions are going to accept that explanation, because that would reduce their miracles to purely secular feats of explainable magic. It'd be like Da Vinci Code, only quite a bit worse. :S
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mfb
post Jul 7 2006, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
Theists: the Jane Christian stance would probably be a common one, as would "God works in mysterious ways, we can't know why he would have given non-Christians magic. Perhaps it is to lead them to the proper path."

interestingly enough, the Bible doesn't actually say that YHWH is the source of all power, or even that he's the only god out there. for instance, the Witch of Endor really did summon up the ghost of the prophet Samuel. Pharaoh's wizards turned their staves into snakes. even the prophets of Baal acted as if they expected their god to light the fire under their sacrifice at Mt. Carmel, when Elijah told them his god could beat up their god.

i was going to say something about how the Bible doesn't talk about the Awakening, which might shake the faith of some (despite the fact that YHWH has never shown a propensity for predicting future events in his written work). and maybe it did, but i'm sure there are a lot of people who twist reality and Revelations so that they match up.

QUOTE (Backgammon)
Hence, I submit that the Awakening did not threathen any beliefs.

i dunno, man. that would require people to be reasonable about their beliefs, and the line between having faith and acting like a retard is very thin (and don't think i'm not slamming atheists with that--lots of atheists i've met are as dogmatic as the Pope).
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SL James
post Jul 7 2006, 05:54 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 7 2006, 11:32 AM)
QUOTE (James McMurray)
Theists: the Jane Christian stance would probably be a common one, as would "God works in mysterious ways, we can't know why he would have given non-Christians magic. Perhaps it is to lead them to the proper path."

interestingly enough, the Bible doesn't actually say that YHWH is the source of all power, or even that he's the only god out there.

I was going to mention that, except that you know, it doesn't really matter as per this discussion a great deal except that it would allow all sorts of religions to claim it was thjeir deity, or even to summon (or summon part) of said deity (something which voudoun did a better job of reflecting before it got nerfed).

QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
[...] though it does offer an explanation of how certain claims, previously discounted as legends, may actually have been possible.

None of the large monotheistic religions are going to accept that explanation, because that would reduce their miracles to purely secular feats of explainable magic. It'd be like Da Vinci Code, only quite a bit worse. :S

Isn't part of the Sylvestrines' mission is to determine whether something is just magic, or a true miracle? Or someone's, I thought.
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Jul 7 2006, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Mr. Unpronounceable)
[...] though it does offer an explanation of how certain claims, previously discounted as legends, may actually have been possible.

None of the large monotheistic religions are going to accept that explanation, because that would reduce their miracles to purely secular feats of explainable magic. It'd be like Da Vinci Code, only quite a bit worse. :S

Not really - because I didn't specify where the power came from even in general, let alone in any given case.

If they were God-created miracles, then it doesn't really matter where on the mana-wave-pattern they occurred. If they were done by magicians, then the relationship between the mage and God would have more to do with the 'holiness' of the event than the means by which it was accomplished.

The problem with The DaVinci Code is that little foreword claiming that the history and scholarship are proven fact - rather than the disproven speculative interpretations and flat-out misrepresentations that it consisted of. If he'd simply called it historical fiction, he'd have gotten many fewer complaints. Most of his arguments are about as convincing as those of the people claiming a missile hit the pentagon on 9/11 - they keep forgetting that there's another plane to account for.
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Platinum
post Jul 7 2006, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE
interestingly enough, the Bible doesn't actually say that YHWH is the source of all power, or even that he's the only god out there.


no ... but it does say that he is the one TRUE God and the creator of all things.

QUOTE
the Witch of Endor really did summon up the ghost of the prophet

Where is this referenced? Can't say I remember this one in the bible.

QUOTE
Pharaoh's wizards turned their staves into snakes.

yes they did, they also turned the nile red. The bible does acknowledge that there is magic, demons and spirits. What God creates the devil duplicates and perverts to cause confusion. Which could explain why religion and spirituality is so controvertial.

Are miracles and healings from God, magic? I personally don't think so, but they are wonderful and unexplained so it is easy for people to label it as so.

QUOTE (Backgammon)
Hence, I submit that the Awakening did not threathen any beliefs.

I think it challenges a person's beliefs because it is based strongly on truths. It is fantasy but it is so close that people think it could be plausible, and that can sow seeds of doubt.
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