Atheism in 2070, How do you defend it? Options

[mfb]

yeah, but--wait, what is this? agreement!? you're screwing with the rhythm, man!

[James McMurray]

Some people just refuse to play ball.

[Moon-Hawk]

Oops, sorry.
Um, dirty girls are better than virgins! Who wants to argue with me?
(just kidding, please don't, I like this thread and wouldn't want to see it closed)

[X-Kalibur]

[James McMurray]

If I've learned anything from modern music it's that Catholic school girls rule.

[Apathy]

[James McMurray]

How many Islamic Fundamentalists feel that blowing themselves up on a bus will get them into paradise? Because something is not true for one group does not make it untrue for all. Even now, with the draft gone, Americans are still lining up to fight in the Middle East. Most of them want to avenge wrongs, but there are also a lot that just "wanna kill Hadji."

[mfb]

if you take the fundamentalist islam out of a suicide bomber, i don't believe you'll end up with a peaceful guy. i think you'll probably end up with a guy who plants bombs on busses and leaves, rather than strapping a bomb onto himself.

[James McMurray]

I'd be willing to bet big money that there are thousands more fundamentalist bombers than not. I know there are more misguided fundamentalist bombers than logical and educated ones, because Islam plainly teaches that any kind of murder is wrong, but the fundamentalists read that as "killing a Mulim is wrong."

Terrorists certainly wouldn't go away, but one of the reasons for being a bomber ("he's an infidel and you'll go to heaven with free nookie forever") goes away when you remove heaven from the equation.

Of course, if you remove religion and don't replace it with another method of teaching morality you'll probably end up with a worse world. The problem in my opinion is that many religions teach that hate is an acceptable part of morality. And I don't just mean the fundamentalists whose "explosive outbursts" put them on the front page. You can still find idiots who will tell you that the Bible says that Blacks are not human, or that the Koran says that women are lesser beings.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Suicide bombing campaigns are the brainchild of nationalist terrorists/irregulars/freedom fighters, only that was (and very much is) far, far away from anything our media and viewing public deems interesting, so we only really hear about the suicide bombing carried out by religious fundamentalists.

[James McMurray]

I always figured suicide bombings were the brainchild of someone who was either a) retarded, b) hated the people who believed in his cause, or c) all of the above. :)

[mfb]

there may very well currently be more fundamentalist bombers than other types. bombers--terrorism in general--is only a small part of the larger picture, though. for instance, the longest, bloodiest, most horriffic wars tend to be based on ethnicity rather than religion.

[James McMurray]

True, which is one of the many reasons I said wars would not go away. Religious wars would go away. Whether they'd be replaced or not is anybody's guess.

[mfb]

i have faith in the ability of humanity to come up with a variety of excuses to take the place of religion.

[SL James]

[Apathy]

I think it's an oversimplification to think that islamic fundamentalists blow themselves up just to gain a free pass to paradise. From my perspective, this kind of mentality has to be fueled by large quantities of percieved persecution, impotent rage, and hopelessness more than anything else.

Trying to draw parallels to a [vaguely] SR-type scenario:

[ Spoiler ]

Please note that this is not intended as an apology for suicide bombers or terrorists, only my attempt to see the world as they might believe it and imagine what they're thinking.

[ Spoiler ]

• Supported by several newly-ascendant powers (dragons, high-initiate mages supported by horrors, etc.), the newly-formed country of Atzlan decides that they've got a right to take back the portions of Mexico that were stolen by the gringos back in the 18th century.
• CAS is already weakened by the fragmentation of the former United States, and the squaballing between all the new countries in N. America. This, combined with their incompetence at wielding magic, means that Atzlan is able to roll over any Texas resistance with little effort.
• Gringos in the territory are treated as a lower caste, with few rights. Atzlan oversees a re-distribution of wealth within their conquered lands, re-locating any gringos (people who can't prove aztec anscestry) to portions of land with no natural resources or arable soil. Periodically, when Atzlan citizens decide they want land that is still occupied by the gringos, they're re-located again, in the name of 'Atzlan security'. After a number of years of this sort of occupation, your people are poor, uneducated, and have little hope of improving their fate.
• Resistance fighters still struggle futily against the occupying forces, which retaliate against the civilian infrastructure. For every atzlaner killed, 10 gringos are killed and 10 more imprisoned. One of these retaliations recently blew up a home where relatives of yours were living. Other family members have been rounded up (picked off the street) because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
• Now you're desperate. The international community has their own problems and doesn't care about yours. You have no food, no money. Your family is dead or in hiding. You suspect that you'll soon be dead or imprisoned as well. Even if you're not killed, you're effectively dead - you've got no future other than more of the same shit you've already lived through. The only thing you've got left is your final act of defiance. You'll go down swinging, and take as many of them with you as you can.

[James McMurray]

I don't think anyone has said they blow themselves up just because of religion, but I think a lot of them would find other things to do if blowing yourself up didn't come with perks.

[SL James]

You mean like their family getting a check from a Saudi-government sponsored charity?

Not all the perks are intangible.

[mfb]

well, yeah--they'd blow other things up, rather than themselves.

[James McMurray]

SL James: You can buy bombers with money with or without religion. Religion gives you free ones too.

mfb: Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't bet money against it, but it's not a given.

[mfb]

i personally view it as a given.

[James McMurray]

Different strokes for different folks. :)

[SL James]

[James McMurray]

Also true.

How's that for "kinder, gentler James?" Agreeing with mfb and SL James in the same day, and even in the same thread! :D

[Apathy]