 Atheism in 2070, How do you defend it? |
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 Jul 7 2006, 11:29 PM
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#51
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019  |
The metaplanes rock.
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Jul 8 2006, 12:02 AM
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#52
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
What science may have once said about those things is an interesting matter, and a fine subject for another discussion elsewhere. Right now, though, and supposedly in 60 years, those things continue to exist as religious beliefs in the face of insurmountable physical evidence to the contrary. Which, to me, says that certain central religious tenets can be proven to be untrue, but that does not necessarily have any effect on those who hold said beliefs. Interpretations of gods certainly change over time (I cannot argue over whether gods themselves do), but that progress seems, to an uninformed observer, to be quite slow with large, centralized religions. So RCC, for example, might have serious trouble with the Awakening -- and did, according to canon, as SL James pointed out earlier. |
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Jul 8 2006, 01:15 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Where to begin??
I don't know if there is a God, but if it gives you Peace and Hope, then so be it. Do what you will, believe what you will, but harm none because of it. Yes Atheism and religion will exist until the end of man. Godlike beings of great power may appear one day, preform miracles, unravel the mysteries of the universe, show some all that was and all that will be, as well as take believers to a paradise. Still people will say there is no such things as God. The world may fall into great suffering, and others will point to Revelations where it says God will give the Devil free reign upon the Earth for several years. They will point to the mention of the mark of the beast upon the head and hand of man, and claim that this refers to Com-links and RFID tags. The bible says that the Devil will come in as a thief in the night, and point to all the evils that mankind has become accustomed to. This is an interesting, but touchy subject, so let us all try our best not to upset or be upset by what may be a callous statement. Says the pot to the kettle. |
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Jul 8 2006, 02:42 AM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
To digress just a little bit further... and hopefully not derail things.... but aren't the bible and science proving each other more and more rather than disproving?
Completely true.... and that has essentially been a huge problem with religion and is really the major flaw... interpretation and the human condition. Because something like the awakening is not really covered in the bible or some other religions, (I know there are a few that cover that material) this leaves supposition and extrapolation of what could or should happen. And in shadowrun it has been done by people that aren't even christians. Though I imagine there was a little research. Heaven only knows what would happen. I would see christianity splintering, as it has over many other issues, ie. divorce. Only by communing with God and his spirit would one figure this out. |
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Jul 8 2006, 03:21 AM
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#55
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
I think atheists and religious people will continue to argue. But magic complicates things, because people will argue about whether magic itself is divine or not. And that can be interesting, because you can have people with the same religious beliefs (or at least belonging to the same religion) arguing about magic.
Some Christians will consider magic to be an ability like being a good painter or a gifted athlete. Sure, it's a gift meant to be used for good like any other, but just as artists and athletes can abuse their gifts, you can have people misuse magic. But the bad person and the good Christian are still casting the same manabolt. Other Christians will consider their own magical abilities divine, and consider other magical beliefs to be of the devil. So now you can have conflict between Christians who will each find the others' views of magic to be heretical, or even blasphemous. Monotheistic religions shouldn't be the only ones asking these questions, though. One thing that I found to be almost insultingly oversimplified, was that any religion that incorporated magic in its worship was supposed to automatically incorporate magic into their belief system. Never mind that "magic" as practiced by, say, a modern-day wiccan or neo-pagan is probably not anything like SR magic! I mean, picture yourself as, say, a wiccan. You have devoted yourself to your beliefs and their practice, and are very knowledgeable about your faith. On the other hand, you know a girl, Suzie, who is a babbling, trend-following, ignorant poser. The awakening hits, and you're pretty much the same, but suddenly insipid little Suzie starts throwing around SR-type "magic". Would you automatically associate this new "magic" with your religion? Or would you be just as likely to consider it a completely separate thing? Atheists can do some soul-searching, too. It might be fun to play an atheist who awakens as a shaman, and tries to reconcile his unbelief with his increasingly ecclesiastical visions and encounters with his Totem. |
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Jul 8 2006, 05:57 AM
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#56
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Yes, and No, like all things religious, alot of the 'proof' and 'disproof' depends more upon your perspective then the nature of the evidence. I remember watching a documentary where the same ruins were being used by both sides. As far as the Shadowrun Universe goes, personally I fall into the camp that believes that most of the same arguments about Religion will be bantered about in 2070 that are in 2006. (Of course, the branch(es) of atheistism that believes in nothing 'Supernatural' will most likely have as hard of a time adapting to the Awakening as the more hardline branches of religion, but thats a given among any of the more unflexable viewpoints.) As for Totems and Spirits, I seem to recall reading in the fluff that they tend to manifest according to the beliefs of their Summoner, which of course would serve as proof of the divine to a religious man, while an atheist would agrue that the Spirit's form was drawn solely from the Summoner's own mind. |
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Jul 8 2006, 06:25 AM
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#57
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
A powerful extradimensional being bestowed power on him to manipulate "mana" and can take it away at any time. I don't see how that could convince a devoted atheist that it proves there is any god. |
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Jul 8 2006, 06:59 AM
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#58
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
What is a god if not a powerful extradimensional being? |
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Jul 8 2006, 07:00 AM
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#59
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Almost nothing can convince a devoted anything that their beliefs are untrue. It's the guys that aren't hardcore fundamentalists that have the enjoyable-to-portay inner doubts and fears about a restructured belief system.
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Jul 8 2006, 07:12 AM
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#60
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Aye, but just because everyone with green eyes also has red hair, it doesn't follow that everyone with red hair will also have green eyes... ;) |
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Jul 8 2006, 07:33 AM
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#61
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I remember someone's particular 'schtick' about God in Shadowrun.
You see, God was neither loving nor Almighty. He was real, and was a very powerful Spirit who long ago started this Religion thing. Worshippers duped into believing whatever he could get them to believe prayed, and through their inadvertant rituals (prayer) 'donated' their Karma to him. It's really a good schtick. People persuaded to give up their Karma on false pretenses still give up karma. That would be a real monkey wrench in everyone's works, eh? |
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Jul 8 2006, 07:52 AM
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#62
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Nah, because you couldn't prove it unless the spirit admitted it, and why would he stop the karma train? Of course, he's already at Force 18,000 with 48,000 spirit energy by now, but he's got to compete with the other spirits that did similar things, including his supposed son Jesus, whose just another spirit riding the faith train to gluttsville.
edit: See, it doesn't really matter what actually happened, all that matters are the points people try to make while defending their own personal corner or religious theory. |
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Jul 8 2006, 07:54 AM
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#63
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
To (poorly) paraphrase Aasimov: Any sufficiently powerful unknown entity can be considered a god. |
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Jul 8 2006, 10:38 AM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I'm more of a scientific positivist, so I can't really agree with Ravor on this. :P Unless you personally believe that the bible is inerrant and/or in scientific foreknowledge of the bible, then you probably know there are several parts in the bible which do not agree with our perceptions of the physical world. The RCC officially acknowledges this, for example. I haven't studied the bible at all, so again I may be way off base here, but it doesn't seem to me the Awakening would mess with the much bible at all. If you do believe in those things, then, well, this discussion is moot. :)
With that interpretation of the origins of most religions, it's just as possible that just about every appearance at different locations in different times of gods, angels, prophets, etc. are different free spirits. In my SR3 Goes Forgotten Realms campaign, all gods are basically free spirits, only they start manifesting even greater abilities, while at the same time getting serious limitations to where, when and how they can manifest and what powers they can use on "prime material" and the astral. |
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Jul 8 2006, 01:37 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
Wow. That is exactly the opposite of everything I have found in my experience. The Immaculate Conception is central to the divinity of Christ - being the direct Son of God and all. Do you know many so-called "Christian scholars" who discount other absurd propositions like the loaves and fishes, water to wine, or the ultimate absurdity, the Resurrection? I really don't think that the awakening |
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Jul 8 2006, 02:11 PM
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#66
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The Bible is part historical chronical, part folklore, and part mythology couched in such a way that contempories of the authors could understand and relate to it. If you ignore the miracles, the scientificly incorrect assumptions that were taken as true by individuals back then, the mythology,the folklore, and all references to "God" it is somewhat acurate. Exact words spoken by exact individuals may have been different and some individuals may have been made up, but in a broad sense many of the events did happen. The Israelites were slaves in Egypt and they did wander in the desert for some unspecified long period of time. 40 years can't be considered accurate because it was shorthand for 'some long period of time' commonly used in ancient folktales. 40, 7, 3, and 12 can never be taken literally in these stories due to the significance of these numbers in ancient literature. I prefer to think that Gods in SR are Free Spirits who have aligned themselves with a human ideal in a way that allows them to draw power from it, hence the Passions, Idols, and Totems. Of course, in my Abrahamic cosmology Lucifer is the good guy who champions human independance and free will. He is classified as a Fallen Angel but is a God due to his alignment with the Firebringer, The Adversary, and the Dark King.
I went to a Methodist College. Methodists aren't very big on Biblical literalism. |
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Jul 8 2006, 04:48 PM
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#67
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Also one must consider the various translation errors that have happened over the many revisions. For example, were the Israelites actually slaves in the modern sense of the word or were they more akin to forced day laborers, paid and relavity well treated? What version of the word Virgin was meant to have been used, Untouched or Unwed? |
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Jul 8 2006, 05:40 PM
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#68
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Some recent translations went right back to the original texts ... like the amplified and I think the NAS.
As for the interpretation of God being a free spirit, it does work well within the mechanics of SR. I think the passions are just a complete waste of text and whatever brainpower people put into them. The Passion/GD/IE metaplots are just big puddles of barf on the shadowrun sidewalk. It may work in Earthdawn but didn't work at all for shadowrun. |
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Jul 8 2006, 06:39 PM
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#69
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Their is no Passions Metaplot. One Passion appeared exactly once in one short story. Passions in general were mentioned in passing in exactly one Shadowtalk post in exactly one setting book.
The Passions are old Gods, dead and dying. They have been usurped by a Pantheon of Totems and Idols. The Gods are dead. Long live the Gods. |
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Jul 9 2006, 12:42 AM
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#70
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
heh. Heinlein much? it's worth pointing out that there are a lot of Christians who do consider the Bible to be 100% accurate and 100% literal. i'm not sure why it's so important to them, but they tend to cling to it fairly fiercly. |
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Jul 9 2006, 12:46 AM
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#71
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Hmmmmm...
God (as interpreted as a Free Spirit) Vs. Lofwyr the Dragon. .... I'd back the Greater Dragon. If only to gloat when we march triumphantly through Rome, under the Arch of Tidus, and get to tell the Pope that we pwned his God. |
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Jul 9 2006, 01:27 AM
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#72
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Milton. Does no one read Paradise Lost anymore? Next thing people will be saying that they never heard of YHWH's estranged wife, Asherah. |
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Jul 9 2006, 02:11 AM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
I know about her! She Who Walks Upon The Waters, right?
That's why I was so annoyed when Dan Brown called God's consort "Shekina" in The Da Vinci Code. That's the name of the manifestation of God's spirit, as Dan would know if he weren't such an ignorant sillyhead. EDIT: Oh yeah, I got to read some of Paradise Lost for English. From what I read in it, Satan struck me as being very stupidly stubborn and in denial. "Oh, I'm not sorry I was cast out of the magnificent glory that was Heaven. I don't ache with every fiber of my being to experience its indescribable joys again. No sir, not me. Excuse me, I've got something in my eye." |
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Jul 9 2006, 02:54 AM
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#74
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
Then again, William Blake did comment that Milton wrote of hell while he was free and of heaven while he was imprisoned.
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Jul 9 2006, 03:03 AM
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#75
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,095 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Ontari-airee-o Member No.: 1,115 |
Well ... to be counted. I believe that the bible is 100% accurate and truth, and mostly literal, but there is also an element that you have missed entirely. Religious section read at your own peril. [ Spoiler ]
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