If the Awakening happened, what would be your...

If the Awakening happened, what would be your..., ideal ratio of Awakened to mundane?

Ideal ratio of Awakened to mundane?
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Birdy

Jul 9 2006, 10:29 AM

Post #26

Moving Target

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QUOTE (emo samurai)

I meant as in a social perspective; which ratio would be best for humanity? Or for yourself?

Yokes aside:

From a social perspective anything greater 0 is a catastrophe! You either get witch-hunts since the people fear magic that escalate into civil wars when the mages strike back and end with certain "high background count" camp-areas being re-used for processing

Or you end up with a magic-using "elite"(1) that uses magic to control/oppress the masses, disguising it behind soft words and slogans.

(1) Claiming "superior" status is a shooting offence in my book

Nidhogg

Jul 9 2006, 10:51 AM

Post #27

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QUOTE (Birdy)

Claiming "superior" status is a shooting offence in my book

No offence, but when you can fly, summon all-powerful super-loyal spirits, and throw around fireballs through will alone, I would call that pretty superior.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Jul 9 2006, 03:10 PM Post #28
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	Who would win in a war between the 1% and the 99% mundanes? I'd imagine that spirits and invisibility spells would pretty much even things out, to say the least.

FanGirl View Member Profile	Jul 9 2006, 04:14 PM Post #29
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438	A sufficiently powerful weapon can destroy a spirit, while you can find an invisible opponent just by throwing some paint around. In other words, I'm pretty sure that the mundies could geek most, if not all, of the mages if they all made the effort. Sure, some of them might die, but that's the price you'd pay in any war.

Birdy

Jul 9 2006, 05:46 PM

Post #30

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QUOTE (emo samurai)

Who would win in a war between the 1% and the 99% mundanes? I'd imagine that spirits and invisibility spells would pretty much even things out, to say the least.

Given that not all Awakened are spellcasters and that the good guys have things like Magic Resistance and Background count on their side, the balance shifts back to Humanity. And in case of a real war: A 20cm piece of jagged iron travelling at Mach-2 does not care about "invisibility" neither do DNS-chechs care about Masking.

Dawnshadow View Member Profile	Jul 9 2006, 05:49 PM Post #31
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086	Depends on the element of surprise FanGirl... Those damned mages, they worked their way to the point they got hold of all the landbased nukes, air traffic has ground to a standstill with freak tornados and storms and these things that drive pilots insane, and we've lost contact with most of the boomers.. We've still got the army, but every time we send them to the field, the officers get shot in the back, and the person who authorized it doesn't live out the month.

Herald of Verjig...

Jul 9 2006, 05:53 PM

Post #32

Runner

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QUOTE (Birdy)

and that the good guys have things like Magic Resistance and Background count on their side,

When exactly did the morality aspect get defined?

Looking at history, it is far more likely that the mundanes will try to exterminate the mages (using much the same reasoning you seem to favor as justification) before any mages actually getting into positions of oppression. The real irony is that the subtle mages who betray their own will easily manipulate this crowd and then become the oppressors.Birdy's a witch, burn him.

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Jul 9 2006, 08:14 PM Post #33
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	The Mages - The Mundanes, Bah. Your looking at this with far too much simplicity.It'll be the believers vs. the infidels. "Hello, my name is David Koresh" I am the physical embodiment of God. Look what I can do." And, of course, every two bit despot and aspiring megacorp will have their on mages.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Jul 9 2006, 09:38 PM Post #34
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	So... 1% bad. I don't like how magical power is treated like an X-Men mutation rather than something you can learn and devote yourself to...

Nidhogg View Member Profile	Jul 9 2006, 09:45 PM Post #35
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 135 Joined: 8-November 05 From: Toronto, Ontario - Canada Member No.: 7,934	If you can learn magic, then everyone and thier dog will do so. Shadowrun is supposed to be a low magic setting, so it wouldn't make much sense if there wasn't really any reason for everyone to know at least a few tricks of the trade.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Jul 9 2006, 09:47 PM Post #36
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	FanGirl seems very opposed to the rule of badass mages. Why are you opposed to badass mages, FanGirl? And as for the war of magic, I assume that the mages will constantly hide themselves and send spirits to assassinate leaders of man. With about 100% success, since they won't have wards, and grenading a spirit is not a good way to save the dude it's engulfing.

FanGirl

Jul 10 2006, 01:37 AM

Post #37

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QUOTE (emo samurai)

FanGirl seems very opposed to the rule of badass mages. Why are you opposed to badass mages, FanGirl?

If by "badass," you mean "one who acts in violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights," then I would say that I am opposed to anyone who is a badass. This is because I strongly believe that human dignity must be protected above all else, and those who seek to violate it cannot truly be said to be acting morally - no matter how good or noble their intentions may be.

I feel the need to point out that I know Emo's character, Shen, to have acted in violation of at least 12 of the Declaration's 30 articles, which are spoiler'd below. Before you point out that the bad guys also violate some of these, please read Article 30.

[ Spoiler ]

James McMurray View Member Profile	Jul 10 2006, 02:47 AM Post #38
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957	IF a war between mundanes and mages happened there would probably be mages on both sides, as I doubt it would be an outright "us vs. them" war. More likely it would start because of abuses of magical power (such as those performed by Shen) leading to hatred and fear. Many awakened types would not want that war to happen and would spend their energies hunting the offenders. For instance, I could not see someone like Daniel Howling Coyote sitting idly by while some upstart mage decides he wants to lord it over the Native Americans. Also, never discount man's engenuity when it comes to extermination. Shadowrun has ways of getting around hiding mages with summoned spirits, I expect real life would as well, but given our history it would be more along the lines of an Astral H-bomb then wards.

hyzmarca

Jul 10 2006, 04:02 AM

Post #39

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QUOTE (FanGirl)

QUOTE (emo samurai)

FanGirl seems very opposed to the rule of badass mages. Why are you opposed to badass mages, FanGirl?

If by "badass," you mean "one who acts in violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights," then I would say that I am opposed to anyone who is a badass. This is because I strongly believe that human dignity must be protected above all else, and those who seek to violate it cannot truly be said to be acting morally - no matter how good or noble their intentions may be.

I feel the need to point out that I know Emo's character, Shen, to have acted in violation of at least 12 of the Declaration's 30 articles, which are spoiler'd below. Before you point out that the bad guys also violate some of these, please read Article 30.

[ Spoiler ]

Rights are obligations of the State. They do not aply to individuals acting on their own or as part of any group that is not the government of a State.

There is also the small matter of the definition of "human." Since human rights are, by definition, limited to human beings a State can easily circumvent them without violating them by choosing a definition of 'human' that does not include the oppressed group.

Derek

Jul 10 2006, 04:24 AM

Post #40

Jacked In, Up & Out

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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

What, you think anti-tech groups wouldn't come along as people see that "the corruption that is technology even silences and blinds the souls of those who rely on it"?

It would be a massive war, techies on one side, mages on the other, and people who don't follow either path distrusted and trampled upon by both.

I believe that setting is called Mage: The Ascension......

;)

FanGirl

Jul 10 2006, 04:39 AM

Post #41

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Rights are obligations of the State. They do not aply to individuals acting on their own or as part of any group that is not the government of a State.

Funny, that's not what Article 30 says:

QUOTE

Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein (emphasis mine).

QUOTE

There is also the small matter of the definition of "human." Since human rights are, by definition, limited to human beings a State can easily circumvent them without violating them by choosing a definition of 'human' that does not include the oppressed group.

And I suppose that makes it okay to violate the rights of that oppressed group?

Kyoto Kid

Jul 10 2006, 05:03 AM

Post #42

Bushido Cowgirl

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QUOTE (FanGirl)

QUOTE (emo samurai)

FanGirl seems very opposed to the rule of badass mages. Why are you opposed to badass mages, FanGirl?

If by "badass," you mean "one who acts in violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights," then I would say that I am opposed to anyone who is a badass. This is because I strongly believe that human dignity must be protected above all else, and those who seek to violate it cannot truly be said to be acting morally - no matter how good or noble their intentions may be.

I feel the need to point out that I know Emo's character, Shen, to have acted in violation of at least 12 of the Declaration's 30 articles, which are spoiler'd below. Before you point out that the bad guys also violate some of these, please read Article 30.

[ Spoiler ]

...Excellent points. It's sad that the TT ascribes to none of these articles. "Elf Uber Alles" is their credo which really ticks me off since in RL Portland is one of the most laid back and cool cities I've lived in since being in the "Big Easy" back in the mid 70s.

For one, the RL motto here is "Keep Portland Weird"

hyzmarca

Jul 10 2006, 05:53 AM

Post #43

Midnight Toker

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QUOTE (FanGirl @ Jul 9 2006, 11:39 PM)

QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Rights are obligations of the State. They do not aply to individuals acting on their own or as part of any group that is not the government of a State.

Funny, that's not what Article 30 says:

QUOTE

Article 30
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein (emphasis mine).

The UN never really understood the concept of Rights very well. Take, for example, Article 26 section 1.

QUOTE

Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory.

That isn't a right. A right is something that an individual is free to exercise or waive by choice. There is no such thing as a compulsery right. Any document that mandates that people who refuse to go to school must be killed has completely missed the boat on the concept of rights.

There is also Article 29 section 3 which, in a rather sneaky fashion, exempts the UN from these rights.

QUOTE

These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

So, the UN can torture you if your exercising of your right not to be tortured would be in violation of the US's purposes. Nice. Now, you may think that Article 30 prevents this, but no. Article 30 prohibits individuals from taking actions 'Aimed at the destruction of' these rights. Torturing someone for information does not have the aim of destroying any rights. It has the aim of getting imformation. Therefore, UN troops torturing a 'Freedom Fighter' who attcked UN forces wouldn't be in violation of section 30.

QUOTE

There is also the small matter of the definition of "human." Since human rights are, by definition, limited to human beings a State can easily circumvent them without violating them by choosing a definition of 'human' that does not include the oppressed group.

And I suppose that makes it okay to violate the rights of that oppressed group?

If they are not human then they don't have these rights in the first place. One cannot violate rights which do not exist. In SR, there are many things that are obviously not human. Satyrs, centaurs, shapeshifters, spirits, and dragons all have legal difficulties for this reason. Likewise, there are some things that push the boundres of the common definition of 'human' such as ghouls, vampires, and drakes. The former two are almost never aforded the 'human' status.

In the Asimov short story that I am so fond of because it can be used to demonstrate how universal rights and imparitives are naturally flawed, the two George robots decide that they are the only real humans alive not out of malice and a desire to subjugate the inferior flesh people, it was simply a matter that was self-evident from their perspective.

Any arbitrary set of 'universal human rights' are doomed to failure because they are too limiting.

I prefer the much broader philosphy of live and let live except when you can't.

Birdy

Jul 10 2006, 10:08 AM

Post #44

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

QUOTE (Birdy)

and that the good guys have things like Magic Resistance and Background count on their side,

When exactly did the morality aspect get defined?

Looking at history, it is far more likely that the mundanes will try to exterminate the mages (using much the same reasoning you seem to favor as justification) before any mages actually getting into positions of oppression. The real irony is that the subtle mages who betray their own will easily manipulate this crowd and then become the oppressors.Birdy's a witch, burn her.

A warlock please. Burn HIM!

I can assure you that both me and the character my nick is based on are male.

Herald of Verjig...

Jul 10 2006, 10:36 AM

Post #45

Runner

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QUOTE (Birdy)

A warlock please.

Warlock is too many syllables for the lynch mob. But I did fix the pronoun.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Jul 10 2006, 01:36 PM Post #46
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	Personally, I think it's okay to nuke lynch mobs of any kind. Anyway, FanGirl, you were wondering about Shen and the code of human rights. I've spoilered my rebuttal. [ Spoiler ] Article 1 I don't think the "spirit of brotherhood" means letting a bunch of people kick little kids for wearing gang colors. Article 2 Shen interfered despite them not having anything to do with them, despite them coming from and living in a completely different nation and environment. Article 3 Who interfered with that right more? Gangsters who demand protection, or the dude who nuked them? Article 5 So hanging people by the back of their jacket on a lamppost for a day is more abusive than putting them in prison and opening them up to gang rape in the shower for a year? Article 6 If anything, Shen was BRINGING law to the Barrens. Article 7 You said it yourself; gangs tend to try to make themselves legitimate in the eyes of the community. This did not matter, however, when he saw them beating up little kids. He did not discriminate based on whatever territorial rights they proclaimed themselves to have. Article 10 Admittedly, he did not give those people a trial, but then again, the institution necessary does not exist in the Barrens. Article 11 He let them go free afterwards; again, being watched while you're in a public place for signs that you're going to mug somebody is much less harsh than prison is. Article 18 Shen's taking over had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with secular violations of human rights on the part of others. Article 19 Unlike the gangsters, Shen didn't care about people disrespecting him, or flashing the wrong colors, or mouthing off, or any one of the myriad other petty infractions that would convince a gang to kill you. In fact, he created a way for people to complain to him about pretty much anything. Article 21 He should do that; in fact, he will be doing that. Article 30 He so far hasn't made any alliances with outside legal authorities, simply because he doesn't trust them any more than most residents of the Barrens. He will, however, judge private security organizations based on their trustworthiness and a majority vote. This is all assuming that you understand that sometimes, inaction IS action, especiall if it allows for baser, self-serving action on the parts of others. I doubt a rational person could really argue that he was worse than a gang that demands respect and protection money.

Merlyn View Member Profile	Jul 22 2006, 03:06 PM Post #47
Target Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 22-July 06 Member No.: 8,940	I have a problem with the whole 'mages will be obvious and cause resentment' thing. An awakened person is only obvious to someone with Astral Sight (assuming they are not masking) unless they do something that is magical and visible. So how does having them live in your neighbourhood cause fractions? Who is the more obvious minority, a white man in a predominantly black neighbourhood, or a black man in the same neighbourhood who is also a mage (notice how I picked a RL example and one that isn't even at the 1% ratio)? And if the mages and mundane line up for a fight, just how do the mundanes know who to attack? As with the witch trails in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, thousands of innocent people will be killed and you will never be able to be certain that you got all, if any, mages.

NightmareX

Jul 22 2006, 03:18 PM

Post #48

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Merlyn)

And if the mages and mundane line up for a fight, just how do the mundanes know who to attack? As with the witch trails in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, thousands of innocent people will be killed and you will never be able to be certain that you got all, if any, mages.

Precisely, but that wouldn't stop the killing from starting in the first place. Or stop some groups from wanting said killing to start. After all, "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

Deamon_Knight View Member Profile	Jul 22 2006, 11:26 PM Post #49
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,784	How did the UN declaraction of Human Rights become the be all, end of of morality? Also remember that the 1% usually includes adepts and those who don't know they are mages or aren't skilled magicians. The "Spirit summoning/Fireball throwing/Flying battle mage" is an even smaller segement of Magical Population.

emo samurai View Member Profile	Jul 23 2006, 01:44 AM Post #50
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019	Again, I'm assuming perfect guerilla warfare; invisibility, summoning spirits from astral, blah blah blah. These people could wipe out the upper echelon of society within a week, and nobody would know what the fuck happened. And would there even be an inquisition to begin with?

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