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> Ruthenium Polymer duds, Page 315. Bust out your BBB
Samaels Ghost
post Jul 7 2006, 11:57 PM
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And I quote
QUOTE
Clothing in 2070 comes in some incredible options to enhance its wearer's quality of life. Commlinks, music players, and other electronic devices are often woven right into the fabric, powered by interwoven batteries or special fabrics with solar recharging capability. Electrochromic threads that change color with low voltage, flexible screens, woven fiberoptics, and similar features allow you to alter the color or display complex images and patterns. Combined with a wireless link, you can set your clothing to display mesages and images from a library file on your commlink, change color according to the weather forecast, or even glow brighter when in the vicinity of more commlinks. More advanced ruthenium polymer systems can take on any color the user wishes in seconds, scanning the surroundings so she can melt into the background (or stand out from a crowd).


This would be uber-cool! "Plain" street clothes with Chameleon suit capabilities.

This also opens the door for abuse, of course. If regular clothing (armor rating 0/0) can be upgraded/bought with Chameleon suit powers than you could just buy a baggy set of duds to cover your Full Body Armor and have a military grade Chameleon suit. Since regular clothing has no armor rating (0/0) it wouldn't even give penalties for using this combo.

If other electronic devices are often woven into the fabric of clothing, could a Medkit? You could set it to make a automatic heal test when it receives word from your biomonitor (also woven in?) that you're injured. OR maybe it'll be kinda like in MGS2 where the Skull suit applied pressure to wounds and gave you meds and whatever to give you assistance in battle.

I hadn't read the part in bold above until recently. I had read the rest though and thought that you could probably use fiberoptic weaves on the Camo Suit and maybe an Agent equipped with Edit and a Camoflage Algorithim knowsoft to adjust your Camo Suit to your environment. It wouldn't have to be immediate, kinda like Transitions Lenses. The displayed camo would be rough like normal camo patterns and only give a +2 to hiding, just like the Camo Suit in the armor section. That way you wouldn't suffer those "Stand-out" modifiers. I didn't just want that implemented to munckin the Camo Suit but because the concept is so freakin' cool. Having your battle armor change from Urban camo to Tundra camo as the snow falls around you....bad....ass. Or even have it flare up to bright red when you're critically injured so your teammates can find your butt and save it. It's not a bad idea and there is likely to be so many other uses as well.

I wanted to bring it up so I can get some GM opinions on some things and for people to check me in case I'm full of crap and misread/misinterpreted something.

What do you think about:

+Ruthenim Polymer duds

+Wrapping FBA in Ruthenium Polymer duds or some equivalent.

+Bringing in the Skull suit via interwoven/installed Medkits and Biomonitors (minus Raiden, blech :S).

+Having Camo Suits actively change to adapt to the environment (and other items of clothing for that matter).

+What some of this stuff should cost.

I want to think of everything before I bring it up to my GM, so any thoughts are greatly appreciated.
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Lagomorph
post Jul 8 2006, 12:52 AM
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I think the last sentance is describing the stealth suit armor, rather than that every day normal clothes can be used like camo suits.
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Clyde
post Jul 8 2006, 03:50 AM
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I don't know about an inbuilt medkit. However, consider a flashpak woven into your clothes - maybe the buttons on a jacket.
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Samaels Ghost
post Jul 8 2006, 07:49 AM
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The flash pak idea is cool. I always thought that flash paks could be installed on helmets or something like that, at least.

I'm really more concerned with my Camo Suit idea, though (the title's knida a misnomer, i guess). Is there anything hinky with the suggested fiberoptic Camo suit?
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WhiskeyMac
post Jul 8 2006, 09:37 AM
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QUOTE

+Wrapping FBA in Ruthenium Polymer duds or some equivalent.


I find this highly abusive. In my mind FBA is pretty obvious and even if you wear baggy clothes someone will know you are wearing it.

And why cover it up with RP duds if you could just get a RP coating on it and get some integrated scanners?

QUOTE

+Bringing in the Skull suit via interwoven/installed Medkits and Biomonitors (minus Raiden, blech ).


That would be easy, almost too easy. Make a suit of semi-rigid form-fitting body armor, say 6/4 (yeah, yeah, "Arsenal" will have it; but until then), that has a built-in biomonitor (the BBB states "can be integrated into clothing") and a small backpack-type hump on the back that contains a autodoc. Once the biomonitor goes off, the autodoc evaluates the character (ala it's rating 6 first aid skill) and applies the necessary treatment to the wounded area via tubes implanted into the FFBA. You could even use that type of set-up for applying combat drugs and various other cocktails. Visions of Bane fill my mind.

I would say if you make it sound feasible (remember this is 2070, micronization is pretty common), your GM should let you use it.

QUOTE

+Having Camo Suits actively change to adapt to the environment (and other items of clothing for that matter).


Just incorporate a ruthenium polymer weave in with the camo and voila! I think it makes more sense than a reversable night/day pattern (WTF?), especially since the RP weave could generate multi-point camo patterns and such. I guess the camo suit is the poorman's chameleon suit.

QUOTE

+What some of this stuff should cost.


I would say in the range of 2,000 to 4,000 :nuyen:, based on how advanced you want the resolution to be and how quick the transition. Prices derived from the Chameleon Suit, coming in at 8,000 :nuyen: and having the same properties. I would say the clothes, probably closer to 500 to 2,000 :nuyen:.

Anyway, that's just my .02 :nuyen: , but I think you have some pretty sweet ideas.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 8 2006, 09:57 AM
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QUOTE (Lagomorph)
I think the last sentance is describing the stealth suit armor, rather than that every day normal clothes can be used like camo suits.

Why? RP is just a special kind of coating... and it's not that broken in SR4.

Normal clothes can change colors and patterns, so basically, with the right soft, you already get normal camo.
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Edward
post Jul 8 2006, 01:57 PM
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Personally I don’t have a problem with non armor ruthenium that goes over armor, of cause it won’t be any easier to get, or significantly cheaper. The civilian stuff would be shaky and require you to stay relatively still to make it work, it would be useless on a run.

WhiskeyMac the idea is not to hide the full body form armor under loose clothing, the idea is to have one set of ruthenium clothing that will go over your FBA but can be used even when your not using that armor.

As to camouflage, photovoltaic (color change but no different image from different angles, no sensors, no active camouflage) clothing is easy to get and cheep, it is a matter of a half ours work to program all 8 (I think) necessary camouflage patterns into it and be able to change between them with a simple action. An agent could do it for you without any programs (just access to your vision augmentation to work out what is appropriate) but your probably better of doing it yourself. This would cost about the same as good clothes, I cant see any reason it would not be standard on military armor,


The woven biomoniter yes, the integrated med kit would be limited buy its inability to manipulate the wound significantly. I would heavily limit its functionality.

Edward
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 8 2006, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Edward)
The woven biomoniter yes, the integrated med kit would be limited buy its inability to manipulate the wound significantly. I would heavily limit its functionality.

No reason doing so - medkits can operate by themselves as soon as they are 'connected'.
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ornot
post Jul 8 2006, 04:41 PM
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Interesting concept here. Of couse if you buy ruthenium clothes that are large enough to cover your FBA, when you wear them without the armour you're going to look pretty bloody silly. Think kid in their father's clothes. Well... maybe not that extreme, but they'll still be very baggy.

As for a medkit built into your clothes, I'm afraid I'd dissallow that for most things. You could put in some combat drugs or painkillers, provided you don't mind a damn great needle being in your arm (if you had it just inject on use you'd either have to go for a fleshy part and have to wait for the drug to diffuse into your blood stream, or risk it moving after you put it on and missing the vein and maybe piercing an artery). The medkit itself needs to be used by someone and simply provides the tools and guidance to use it effectively.

A smart suit that applies pressure to wounds and administers drugs sounds cool, but bear in mind that said wound has made a hole in the armour in that exact place, which I'd have thought would impair the suits function. I could be persuaded, but I'll wait and see.

Camo suits that actively change are a good idea, and would probably be utilised in the military if it weren't for cost. After all, why bother with one suit that can change colour, when you could as easily issue the troops with appropriate camouflage for where they're stationed? A runner who doesn't know what the environment will be from one mission to the next would quite likely have one.
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Clyde
post Jul 8 2006, 06:09 PM
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If I were GMing, I'd rule that Ruthenium polymer clothes that could act as a Chameleon suit should cost nearly as much as the suit. A bit less, because there's no armor, but not much because of the need to retrofit something already existing.

I think a medkit attached to your back could do some nifty things, but not everything. It could do a lot of good by dispensing medication at need - painkillers like morphine can go a long way to lessening the trauma of an injury even if it doesn't repair it. Anti-toxins could also be usefully dispensed for those times you get dosed with narcojet. Likewise, whatever it is that they put in stim patches. You could even rig it up to dispense combat drugs on demand - with attendant consequences for your soul.

However, it would have a hard time controlling bleeding, swelling, abrasion, burns, etc becaues it can't act on the actual wound site (where the action is). Also, a big part of first aid is the basics: maintaining an airway, stemming bleeding and monitoring the heartbeat. A micro defibrilator (good for one shot or so) could easily be worn over the heart, if you're that crazy. Bleeding might be contained two ways. One is the use of myomer fibers in the clothes that would constrict around the site of an injury - which applies direct pressure and relieves bleeding. They could also act on pressure points or create a tourniquet. The other way would be to apply clotting agents to the wound site - possibly thorugh a mesh of microtubing under the suit.

There are some downfalls - you're still hurt for one - and the suit itself might easily be damaged. I can especially see this happening with concussive weapons like grenades. Bullets could rupture tubing - making it impossible to get in the clotting agents, they could also disrupt the circuitry of the suit.

Finally, think of what a hacker could do with a backpack full of drugs, remote control tourniquets and forty thousand volts over your heart! Plus, he'll rewire your ruthenium polymers to say something asinine like: "Look how much I blow!"

There's much to be said for a little unit that could autoinject stimpatch, painkillers, trauma patch, antidotes and combat drugs on demand, though. I'll have to give my goons those sometime :)
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Samaels Ghost
post Jul 8 2006, 06:15 PM
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First of all, the Medkit can function on its own, check pg. 244. With only 6 dice (its maximum rating) anyway, a medkit can't do more than cure grazing wounds or similar anyway. Liquid Bandages and coagulants could probably be used to reflect these limited dice. It'll help against damage that is reduced down to a little bit of stun. Plus, the healing process will take a combat turn per point healed. All very much like MGS2.

As for the Autodoc, it is a large drone, i'm happy with keeping it a medkit which can be much smaller.

If Autodocs were possible a rigger with First Aid/Medicine could use his actual skill+attribute to heal. An idea for all you hackers out there. Bribe a Docwagon rigger to cover you ass through a Autodoc when you're exploring cyberspace.


Preprogramming camo patterns you might need makes more sense than having an Agent do it on the fly. Thanks Edward.

Different RP clothes would be used for covering FBA and causual wear. The baggy version would not be used to go to meetings with with Johnson or sneak to your safehouse. That would be silly. I didn't really want to use a baggy version of RP clothes, the better solution would be to coat different armors in RP. The whole "Cover FBA with RP material" has come up in my games sessions before and I found that the idea was a little excessive. I have always said no because it seems so powerful.

One of my players uses a Chameleon Suit on a day to day basis. He also like to use a combat axe. On missions it has come up whether his huge axe shows up while he is sneaking around. The obvious answer is yes. Then came the envitable "Can't I wrap it in RP material? Make a sheath for it?" Being as that line of thinking leads to "Why can't a treat my FBA in RP?" I had to say no. If this conversation leads to different conclusions, however, my players are going to be VERY happy. And all of my security guards are going to have to have ultrasound from now on....

Would a fiberoptic weave camo suit (not chameleon) actually glow?
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jervinator
post Jul 9 2006, 01:24 AM
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I thought that the Chameleon Suit cost so much because it's color-changing was notably quicker (milli-seconds instead of seconds) and programs itself based on what it's scanners see. Regular color-changing clothing totally lacks the multiple high-resolution scanners and the processing power required to use that information to implement an appropriate color scheme in a timely manner.
Technically, you could add that ability to any clothing, but the price tag would be quite heavy, probably MORE than just buying a chameleon suit to begin with. Imagine adding a P4 laptop to your t-shirt.
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Crusher Bob
post Jul 9 2006, 04:02 AM
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Yes, if you want to you can treat your tank, powered armor, or whatever, in the color changing fibers. Come 2070 expect almost everything to have some color changing ability, though most of it will just be 'static' camo patterns. The Chameleon Suit has the addition of several high quality visual scanners and enough procesing power to decide how to change the appearance of the suit. It's the cameras and processing power that really up the cost, no so much the color changing fibers themselves. The cost and complexity of the full Chameleon system would quickly gorw out of hand for something very large though. Sure you might have a one off Chameleon Tank, but most of the things looking for a tank are not going to be using visible light sensors anyway, so what would be the point? Thermograph, ultrasound, milimeter wave radar (think drone sensor systems), chem sniffers, astral perception all will defeat the chameleon system...
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Samaels Ghost
post Jul 9 2006, 05:31 AM
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Who said anything about a tank? :(

I was talking about personal gear. Where did that come from? Of course visually cloaking a tank is pointless. You'd make sure emissions were reduced and the outside deflected radar like a stealth bomber does.

Who has tanks anyway? Aren't Shadowrunners hired for the low profile and deniability? If I were a Johnson I would never hire a group I knew likes to use their pet tank on missions. Hell, the Ares Citymaster is a stretch.....
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Crusher Bob
post Jul 9 2006, 05:40 AM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)

One of my players uses a Chameleon Suit on a day to day basis. He also like to use a combat axe. On missions it has come up whether his huge axe shows up while he is sneaking around. The obvious answer is yes. Then came the envitable "Can't I wrap it in RP material? Make a sheath for it?" Being as that line of thinking leads to "Why can't a treat my FBA in RP?" I had to say no. If this conversation leads to different conclusions, however, my players are going to be VERY happy. And all of my security guards are going to have to have ultrasound from now on....


I was responding to that. You can cover whatever you want in the color changing polymers, you axe, your heavy armo, whatever. Notice that covering the axe might no work out as well, as you will tend to hit things with the axe which will not be great for the polyers, add the fact that all the blood, brains, and viscera will still show up on both you and the axe. You can get Chameleon Bags, which might be a better bet to carry your axe around with, just make sure that they have washable liners.
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Samaels Ghost
post Jul 9 2006, 05:57 AM
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Oh, okay. Yeah I was thinking along the axe sheath lines as well. I would never allow something as big as a tank. Axe to Tank is a bit of a leap though....

Washable liners...hehe :D
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Clyde
post Jul 9 2006, 07:03 PM
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Even the high end Ruthenium setup in the Chameleon suit only works at a walking pace, right? The tank would be limited to a couple miles per hour. Plus, tanks don't have anything to fear from small arms, really. The only stuff that can take them out has a Sensor rating, which means radar, etc. Though it might have certain special ops applications it doesn't seem useful for general combat purposes.

Now Ruthenium camouflage tarping that you could pull over a crew served weapon position (heavy machine gun, missile launcher, assault cannon) would have lots of uses for the high end corporate forces. Of course, regular camouflage netting would probably provide a decent -2 to Perception rolls at 1% of the cost . . .

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Rotbart van Dain...
post Jul 9 2006, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Clyde)
Even the high end Ruthenium setup in the Chameleon suit only works at a walking pace, right?

Nope. Speed restrictions are gone, but overall performance has been reduced, too.
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Shrike30
post Jul 10 2006, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE (Clyde)
Plus, tanks don't have anything to fear from small arms, really. The only stuff that can take them out has a Sensor rating, which means radar, etc.

Shoulder-fired rockets are one of the most dangerous anti-tank weapons used in urban environments. Unguided and usually fired at the top, sides, or rear of a tank, rocket-propelled grenades and visually-controlled wire-guided missles often have enough of a warhead to punch through these lesser-armored locations, and seriously damage or cripple a tank.
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hobgoblin
post Jul 10 2006, 07:07 PM
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QUOTE
Make a suit of semi-rigid form-fitting body armor, say 6/4 (yeah, yeah, "Arsenal" will have it; but until then), that has a built-in biomonitor (the BBB states "can be integrated into clothing") and a small backpack-type hump on the back that contains a autodoc. Once the biomonitor goes off, the autodoc evaluates the character (ala it's rating 6 first aid skill) and applies the necessary treatment to the wounded area via tubes implanted into the FFBA. You could even use that type of set-up for applying combat drugs and various other cocktails. Visions of Bane fill my mind.


sounds like the half-life hazard suit to me ;)
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WhiskeyMac
post Jul 10 2006, 07:10 PM
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Doh, I didn't even realize that it sounded like the hazard suit. Now you just need to get an agent that speaks to you with a female voice and you have it. Oooh, with full FBA you could get a female voice agent and then be the Major :) Halo, watch out!
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Shrike30
post Jul 10 2006, 07:18 PM
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SR3's Man and Machine talked about nano-medkits, and even the implanted nano-hive variants. How do we know that a 2070 medkit needs to be even remotely near the wound to work it's magic?
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X-Kalibur
post Jul 10 2006, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (Shrike30)
SR3's Man and Machine talked about nano-medkits, and even the implanted nano-hive variants. How do we know that a 2070 medkit needs to be even remotely near the wound to work it's magic?

Lack of evidence supporting either would be my guess.
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Edward
post Jul 11 2006, 04:02 AM
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You could have the suite consist of tubes and secret gel based medications to the wound site, probably just charge the suite with liquid bandage and whenever it breaks it dumps liquid bandage on the site. Combined with a drug administration system that could be implemented in a manner comparable to slap patches this could count as a full med kit.

In SR3 you could cover hardened military armor with ruthenium polymers. This was not an after market modification however and the availability became suitably high. Light tanks where easier to get. I am expecting comparable rules in the gear book.

This also would create the possibility to purchase RP bags and weapon sheathes. These remain hard to get and expensive. As well as being something you would not be able to make yourself (well you could if you had an armorors facility and a chemistry facility and a microelectronics facility and where very good with those 3 skills and took months to make it. at this point its easier to just buy it)

“Sure you might have a one off Chameleon Tank”

umm, in SR3 the rules for making them where in rigger 3

Remember there are 2 levels of camouflage.

Ruthenium such as is in the chameleon suite provides a -4 penalty threw active camouflage, getting other armor with this would be very difficult and expensive

Camouflage patterns provide a -2 penalty are static and only work-in there environment. With the fluff on fusion clothing having color change it becomes reasonable to expect most military issue armor to come with the ability to change color with programmed camo patterns for all environments and others to make yourself recognizable

And then there is the spirit power of concealment, I do like my force 8 spirits.

Edward
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Samaels Ghost
post Jul 11 2006, 04:07 AM
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I F*ing hate concealment. -8 perception dice my ARSE!
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