Jagged Alliance 2 is how I want my SR combat to be

Jagged Alliance 2 is how I want my SR combat to be, Thanks to those who recommended it

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Wounded Ronin

Aug 23 2006, 10:52 PM

Post #76

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One more realism related thought, as long as we're making the mod more realistic.

I think that grenades need to be a lot more powerful. As the game is written right now grenades are highly unlikely to kill anyone even if they land right next to them. Furthermore, it seems like if you throw a grenade and it directly hits a character it dosen't detonate, which is extremely strange. AE, would you consider beefing up the damage caused by grenades?

Hand in hand with that, I think that whatever the threshold is for showing bloody dismemberment needs to be lowered. I'm pretty sure that if a grenade lands at a person's feet and explodes they should be ripped in half. But as it is in game right now only dead bodies explode into gore if you grenade them, which of course dosen't make sense.

The same goes for decapitation. I haven't figured out what causes decapitation in game but very rarely if you shoot someone in the head their head explodes. However, shouldn't head exploding be a pretty consistient thing once you start headshotting with lapua magnum rounds and larger? Would it be possible to change the decapitation parameters to make it more likely, or is that data not in an external file?

Just for flavor, another quote from that memoir:

QUOTE

A detonation like thunder, and I inhale the filthy fumes of a 5.9 as I cringe against the muddy bank. The German heavies have got the road taped to an inch. Their last shell has pitched on our two M.G. teams, sheltering in the ditch on the other side of the road. They disappear, and all we can hear are groans so terrible they will haunt me for ever.

Kennison, their officer, stares dazed, looking at a mass of blood and earth. Another crash and the woman and her cottage and water jars vanish and her pitiful washing hangs in a mocking way from her sagging clothes line. A bunch of telephone wires falls about us. To my bemused brain this is a catastrophe in itself, and I curse a Canadian Sapper beside me for not attempting to mend them.

He eyes me vacantly, for he is dead. More and more of these huge shells, two of them right in our midst. Shrieks of agony and groans all round me. I am splashed with blood. Surely I am hit, for my head feels as though a battering-ram has struck it. But no, I appear not to be, though all about me are bits of men and ghastly mixtures of khaki and blood.

See, for realism, the game should have more "ghastly mixtures of khaki and blood".

hyzmarca

Aug 23 2006, 10:55 PM

Post #77

Midnight Toker

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Cyanogen chloride or hydrogen cyanide would probably be better than mustard gas or clorine, depending on the effects of the weapon. Chlorine is most deadly in enclosed spaces and in low-lying areas due to it being heavity than air.

But, if one wants to go with military leetness rather than realism, mustard gas does sound cooler than the alternatives.

QUOTE

An HCN concentration of 300 parts per million in air will kill a human within a few minutes. The toxicity is caused by the cyanide ion. The mechanism of this toxicity, and the uses of the poison, are described in the Cyanide article. Hydrogen cyanide (under the brand name Zyklon B) was perhaps most infamously employed by Germany's mid-20th century Nazi regime as a method of mass-execution. Hydrogen cyanide is now listed under schedule 3 of the Chemical Weapons Convention.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 23 2006, 11:03 PM

Post #78

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

Cyanogen chloride or hydrogen cyanide would probably be better than mustard gas or clorine, depending on the effects of the weapon. Chlorine is most deadly in enclosed spaces and in low-lying areas due to it being heavity than air.

This is what it does in game:

Each character has hitpoints, which are reduced by damage and which is derived from the character's attributes. The hitpoints are protected to varying extents from things like bullets by the armor you wear. So it's your basic concept of hitpoints.

Each character also has stamina, which some people call "breath". Stamina goes away when your character runs, swims, or does something difficult at a rate which is affected by injury level and encumberance. If your stamina score gets very low your character cannot move and cannot shoot and just kind of lies there helplessly. In the 1.13 mod you may lose stamina when shot even if your armor totally or mostly protected your hitpoints.

In the original JA2, "mustard gas" would rapidly take away both your stamina AND your hitpoints. For all intents and purposes, if your character wasn't wearing a gas mask he would be immediately incapacitated by losing most of his stamina as soon as a gas cloud reached him. Most unprotected characters would die in 2 or 3 combat turns from "mustard gas". Even if your character got gassed for one turn and then you had him put on a gas mask he would stop taking damage but he'd already be pretty badly injured and he'd also probably be incapacitated because his stamina would already be quite low.

That's why I think that chlorine gas would be better. The incapacitation would represent the debilitating coughing and choking that inhaling a lot of chlorine gas would entail.

Incidentally, I'm not sure if in the 1.13 mod "mustard gas" still incapacitates you. I haven't tested it yet.

QUOTE

But, if one wants to go with military leetness rather than realism, mustard gas does sound cooler than the alternatives.

That's probably what it was. I got the feeling that nobody, not even the 1.13 mod people, really studied gasses.

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Aug 23 2006, 11:09 PM Post #79
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	As far as "cool sounding" goes, I always thought phosgene had the best name.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 23 2006, 11:23 PM

Post #80

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QUOTE (Shrike30)

As far as "cool sounding" goes, I always thought phosgene had the best name.

Yeah, but a lot of people hadn't heard of it. *I* hadn't really heard of it till today. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure everyone's heard of mustard gas.

Butterblume View Member Profile	Aug 23 2006, 11:29 PM Post #81
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081	I just remembered the feat in Fallout which let enemies die in a more horrible fashion :D. BTW, Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel has a similar combat system. Equipment management sucks, though, and the game is at times ridiculously difficult. When I am at it, Syndicate from Bullfrog was a real cyberpunk game :cyber:.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 23 2006, 11:35 PM

Post #82

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QUOTE (Butterblume)

I just remembered the feat in Fallout which let enemies die in a more horrible fashion :D.

BTW, Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel has a similar combat system. Equipment management sucks, though, and the game is at times ridiculously difficult.

When I am at it, Syndicate from Bullfrog was a real cyberpunk game :cyber:.

Yeah, but Fallout was really really unrealistics. I see JA and Fallout as being opposites. Fallout is big on role playing and really low on realistic firearms; it's all about shotgun blasts to the head shaving off only a few hitpoints and M60 machineguns doing less damage per hit than M249s. JA, on the other hand, especially with these mods, is more about being relatively light on the role playing and being more big on the tactical battle.

JA2 also has the nice feature of having plenty of guns that aren't necessarily designed to go in a stepladder manner from better to worse. Fallout, on the other hand, had a lot of guns, but they were more obviously arranged so that each one would be better or worse than another. Going through equipment in Fallout was more like climbing a Dragon Warrior style EQ totem pole. That actually irritated me.

hyzmarca

Aug 23 2006, 11:43 PM

Post #83

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 23 2006, 05:55 PM)

Cyanogen chloride or hydrogen cyanide would probably be better than mustard gas or clorine, depending on the effects of the weapon. Chlorine is most deadly in enclosed spaces and in low-lying areas due to it being heavity than air.

This is what it does in game:

Each character has hitpoints, which are reduced by damage and which is derived from the character's attributes. The hitpoints are protected to varying extents from things like bullets by the armor you wear. So it's your basic concept of hitpoints.

Each character also has stamina, which some people call "breath". Stamina goes away when your character runs, swims, or does something difficult at a rate which is affected by injury level and encumberance. If your stamina score gets very low your character cannot move and cannot shoot and just kind of lies there helplessly. In the 1.13 mod you may lose stamina when shot even if your armor totally or mostly protected your hitpoints.

In the original JA2, "mustard gas" would rapidly take away both your stamina AND your hitpoints. For all intents and purposes, if your character wasn't wearing a gas mask he would be immediately incapacitated by losing most of his stamina as soon as a gas cloud reached him. Most unprotected characters would die in 2 or 3 combat turns from "mustard gas". Even if your character got gassed for one turn and then you had him put on a gas mask he would stop taking damage but he'd already be pretty badly injured and he'd also probably be incapacitated because his stamina would already be quite low.

That's why I think that chlorine gas would be better. The incapacitation would represent the debilitating coughing and choking that inhaling a lot of chlorine gas would entail.

Sounds like Chlorine would be more accurate.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 23 2006, 11:50 PM

Post #84

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Aug 23 2006, 06:03 PM)

QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Aug 23 2006, 05:55 PM)

Cyanogen chloride or hydrogen cyanide would probably be better than mustard gas or clorine, depending on the effects of the weapon. Chlorine is most deadly in enclosed spaces and in low-lying areas due to it being heavity than air.

This is what it does in game:

Each character has hitpoints, which are reduced by damage and which is derived from the character's attributes. The hitpoints are protected to varying extents from things like bullets by the armor you wear. So it's your basic concept of hitpoints.

Each character also has stamina, which some people call "breath". Stamina goes away when your character runs, swims, or does something difficult at a rate which is affected by injury level and encumberance. If your stamina score gets very low your character cannot move and cannot shoot and just kind of lies there helplessly. In the 1.13 mod you may lose stamina when shot even if your armor totally or mostly protected your hitpoints.

In the original JA2, "mustard gas" would rapidly take away both your stamina AND your hitpoints. For all intents and purposes, if your character wasn't wearing a gas mask he would be immediately incapacitated by losing most of his stamina as soon as a gas cloud reached him. Most unprotected characters would die in 2 or 3 combat turns from "mustard gas". Even if your character got gassed for one turn and then you had him put on a gas mask he would stop taking damage but he'd already be pretty badly injured and he'd also probably be incapacitated because his stamina would already be quite low.

That's why I think that chlorine gas would be better. The incapacitation would represent the debilitating coughing and choking that inhaling a lot of chlorine gas would entail.

Sounds like Chlorine would be more accurate.

That's what I was thinking. Furthermore, from a game balance/eq perspective, the gas mask (which is supposed to be a Russian or Chinese knockoff of that drinking straw gas compatible gas mask which was used by the US in Gulf War Number One) is supposed to make your characters unharmed by gas attacks.

If you were using deadlier gasses which supposedly are able to penetrate filters that would mess up the game balance. As long as it's "only" chlorine gas the original game balance can be preserved since the gas mask item remains effective.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Aug 23 2006, 11:52 PM Post #85
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Seriously, go to their boards, tell them what you're doing and why it should be that way. This belongs in the next release.

Butterblume

Aug 23 2006, 11:57 PM

Post #86

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

Fallout is big on role playing and really low on realistic firearms

The second part is true, but Fallout Tactics isn't a RPG, it is a really hard squad based combat game.

I bought UFO: Enemy Unknown and XCOM: Terror from the deep at low cost. I would play XCom 3, if I had the time (Its abandonware now).

I bought JA2 as soon as it was published, and didn't regret it ;).

Shrike30 View Member Profile	Aug 24 2006, 12:05 AM Post #87
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98	X-Com 2 is reportedly ridiculously hard. See, it went like this: X-Com 1 had this bug that would reset your game difficulty to the easiest setting after you finished your first mission. This bug went undetected. X-Com 2 was made, and part of the thinking behind it was "let's make it harder than X-Com 1, because we've got all these players saying "Uh, guys... this game is really not that hard, even on the highest level of difficultly." Later on, the bug in 1 was discovered and patched... but 2 had already been made, and is pretty brutal. X-Com: Apocalypse (X-Com 3) is a game I could never get into, for which I blame the UI and the level of micromanagement involved. My brother loved it, though. Try playing it in realtime... the game changes noticeably in terms of how it plays (including the ability to use two guns at once, and being able to airburst grenades if you want).

Wounded Ronin

Aug 24 2006, 01:12 AM

Post #88

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

My understanding is that they raise AP costs for things that are longer and heavier and lower them for things that are smaller and lighter.

I understand that that's what they're doing, but it doesn't make sense. Once the weapon is pointed in the right direction (it has been Readied), the main thing to consider with the shooting AP cost is how much work is involved in re-acquiring the target after the first shot. With a 9x19mm SMG, such as an MP5A4, this is extremely quick -- there is practically no work involved there -- hence the AP cost for firing it should be very, very low, even if the Ready AP cost is significantly larger than that of a handgun.

I'm currently just dropping all 9mm (and .40 S&W) handgun firing AP costs to 3 and the same for all 9x19mm MPs and SMGs. I also fiddled with the accuracies and ranges a bit (some Russian GPMGs were more accurate than the M16A4), tuned all the autofire shots/AP rates to 1/150rpm cyclic (so AKs are 4, MP5s are 5, the MAC 10 is 8, etc.) and changed Autopenalties/Burstpenalties as I felt necessary. Now I'm just going to change the Impacts (damage ratings) -- currently at VSS Vintorez, which I decided isn't worth more than M855 Ball out of 20" barrels since it is, after all, firing a round-ish nosed subsonic 9mm round.

There's just so much I could do with the grenades, like getting rid of the stupid "vacuum stun" grenades and replacing them with offensive/concussion grenades, tweaking with all the damage ratings and blast radii, etc. If I ever bother to do that, I'll be sure to Find/Replace Mustard with Chlorine. :)

Oh, right, one more thing to do: modify stack limits to allow for basic military loadouts.

Hardcore freakin' awesome! I can hardly wait.

mmu1

Aug 24 2006, 01:13 AM

Post #89

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

One more realism related thought, as long as we're making the mod more realistic.

I think that grenades need to be a lot more powerful. As the game is written right now grenades are highly unlikely to kill anyone even if they land right next to them. Furthermore, it seems like if you throw a grenade and it directly hits a character it dosen't detonate, which is extremely strange. AE, would you consider beefing up the damage caused by grenades?

Not all grenades are fused to explode on impact.

They're also nowhere near powerful enough to dismember someone, providing they're not actually lying down on top of the grenade as it explodes - and even then, I'd bet against it.

If one goes off literally at your feet, then anything other than instant incapacition is rather unlikely (you have a non-trivial chance of not dying on the spot, but will get shredded), but once you start putting any distance between the grenade and its victim, the lethality drops dramatically.

Wounded Ronin

Aug 24 2006, 01:29 AM

Post #90

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QUOTE (mmu1)

QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Aug 23 2006, 06:52 PM)

One more realism related thought, as long as we're making the mod more realistic.

I think that grenades need to be a lot more powerful. As the game is written right now grenades are highly unlikely to kill anyone even if they land right next to them. Furthermore, it seems like if you throw a grenade and it directly hits a character it dosen't detonate, which is extremely strange. AE, would you consider beefing up the damage caused by grenades?

Not all grenades are fused to explode on impact.

They're also nowhere near powerful enough to dismember someone, providing they're not actually lying down on top of the grenade as it explodes - and even then, I'd bet against it.

If one goes off literally at your feet, then anything other than instant incapacition is rather unlikely (you have a non-trivial chance of not dying on the spot, but will get shredded), but once you start putting any distance between the grenade and its victim, the lethality drops dramatically.

Thanks for the info regarding grenades. I appreciate it greatly.

What I was saying about the grenades not exploding when they hit someone is that for some reason they don't explode at all. That's why it's so odd.

In any case, I posted a topic about this over on The Bear Pit, just so that they know that we're having a discussion about their mod. The URL of my post over there is http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/cgi-bin/ubb...c&f=42&t=000366

Grinder

Aug 24 2006, 07:51 AM

Post #91

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

See, for realism, the game should have more "ghastly mixtures of khaki and blood".

OT: whenever I read diaries of WW1 survivors, I'm thank God that I never ever will be in the same situation. War sucks, no question, with WW1 being the most brutal example of it.

Arethusa

Aug 25 2006, 03:36 AM

Post #92

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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)

In any case, I posted a topic about this over on The Bear Pit, just so that they know that we're having a discussion about their mod. The URL of my post over there is http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/cgi-bin/ubb...c&f=42&t=000366

We should really take a roll call of the people here who would be interested in getting involved over there. They've done a lot of good work, but when it comes to knowing about small arms and tactics, they really need the help.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Aug 25 2006, 11:53 AM Post #93
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Any opinions on whether body armor should be repairable, and if so how difficult should it be? For realism, of course, I'd rather make all of it non-repairable, but that might make Bobby Ray's business a bit too profitable...

hyzmarca View Member Profile	Aug 25 2006, 12:44 PM Post #94
Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456	Well, you can repair some ceramic trauma plates by shoving a couple of new ceramic balls in and covering up the hole. I wouldn't trust one if I had a choice, but it is better than nothing, certainly.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Aug 25 2006, 02:14 PM Post #95
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Any particular designs, or did you see this mentioned not directly linked to specific types? The only impact photos I've seen do not suggest easy repair -- either they look like this, or they're fractured, or the front part is completely frayed out and the back is dented as in that image.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Aug 25 2006, 06:06 PM Post #96
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Is there a way to set it to non reparable on Realistic but leave it reparable on Sci Fi?

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Aug 25 2006, 06:23 PM Post #97
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Umm, I don't think so. I think that only switches between a few strategic things, ie. the bugs (and something else?). All the basic data is the same. In the meanwhile, 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm Glasers became Mk 262 Mod 1s and Sierra MatchKings (as opposed to generic, low-quality HPs), respectively, while the cold-loaded Glasers for the same became M995s and M993s, and ammo weights were changed to be as accurate as I could manage without going full-out Google on all cartridge, magazine and belt clip weights. I'll hold on doing anything to the armor until I've (or someone else has) thought it through. [Maybe this should be moved to General Gaming?] This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Aug 25 2006, 06:30 PM

hyzmarca

Aug 25 2006, 06:49 PM

Post #98

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Aug 25 2006, 09:14 AM)

Any particular designs, or did you see this mentioned not directly linked to specific types? The only impact photos I've seen do not suggest easy repair -- either they look like this, or they're fractured, or the front part is completely frayed out and the back is dented as in that image.

Only those plates which consist of a hollow shell filled with tightly-packed ceramic balls, of course.

http://www.tacticalshop.com/index.asp?Page...PROD&ProdID=159

QUOTE

Constructed of both Dyneema and AL203 Alumina Ceramic balls, which gives the plate a multi hit capability of approx 20 shots per 10x12 plate (if 30mm between the shots).

These plates will never break and will withstand extreme violence. They are repairable the same way you repair walls. (clean the strike hole, replace the ceramic ball and plaster the area...)

Arethusa

Aug 25 2006, 06:57 PM

Post #99

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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)

Umm, I don't think so. I think that only switches between a few strategic things, ie. the bugs (and something else?). All the basic data is the same.

In the meanwhile, 5.56x45mm and 7.62x51mm Glasers became Mk 262 Mod 1s and Sierra MatchKings (as opposed to generic, low-quality HPs), respectively, while the cold-loaded Glasers for the same became M995s and M993s, and ammo weights were changed to be as accurate as I could manage without going full-out Google on all cartridge, magazine and belt clip weights.

I'll hold on doing anything to the armor until I've (or someone else has) thought it through.

[Maybe this should be moved to General Gaming?]

Certain items do get replaced or swapped out on realistic, though. Rocket rifles, XM25s, etc are only available on Sci Fi. You might be forced to make copies of the armor items with the reparable trait changed and just swap in place on Realistic, but I don't know.

And, actually, I think once we get a few people here interested (Ronin, Critias maybe, a few others?), we should move this over to The Bear's Pit.

Austere Emancipa...

Aug 25 2006, 07:08 PM

Post #100

Great Dragon

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hyzmarca: Ah, ok. Well, I don't know. If all the parts for the repair have to come from a Tool Kit, the repair still couldn't be done. But that is a pretty good excuse for keeping the degrade rate of the ceramic plates quite low (certain not at 100% as it is in the 1.13 files).

QUOTE (Arethusa)

Certain items do get replaced or swapped out on realistic, though.

That I didn't know. I'll have to check how that happens, and how difficult it would be to copy/paste new instances of armor in all the tables.

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