Fighting with magic fingers., Opponents dice pool Options

[Edward]

Fighting with magic fingers.
Opponents dice pool

The spell clearly determines the dice pool the caster uses when he attacks with magic fingers. His own unarmed skill the spells agility (net sorcery hits) with a 2 dice penalty for unusual positioning and presumably any visual penalty that may applyand probably -2 for sustaining the spell.

What dice pool dose the victim use to resist this. I would assume it would be unarmed combat but what penalty for the absence of an actual opponent, not only can you not see to predict an angle of attack but you cant wave your weapon around hoping to keep your opponent at bay.

Edward

[booklord]

You can do that?

I have to check the spell description but I think that magic fingers allows you to manipulate physical objects, but its a telekinetic manipulation like levitation.

For example I use magic fingers, to lift up a soda bottle. Someone sees this and tries to figure out why the bottle is floating. He feels all around the bottle but can't tell what's holding it up. That's because magic Fingers is a levitation spell that can move from object to object and that the magician controls through hand movements for as long as he sustains the spell. You can attack with Magic Fingers but the only way you can do it is to pick up an object and use it as a weapon. You can't attack directly because the magic fingers have no physical form or substance.

Now in the event that that the character wanted to cast a "Magic Fists spell". The fists in this case would behave like mini-physical barriers that could move. Furthermore they could be destroyed by an attack just like the physical barrier could. And finally like the physical barrier, they would be visible.

[booklord]

I'd also be leery about letting the magician use magic fingers to break or damage a person or object without pressing it against another object or throwing it against another object or using it to strike another object.

As cool as a Darth Vader style
"You have disappointed me for the last time admiral"
might be, it could be very unbalancing and open to abuse.

[Vaevictis]

I would let people use Magic Fingers to behave just like Clout -- instead of manipulating objects, you smack em one. You forfeit the ability to sustain it in the process; I don't think it would be too unbalancing, because the price you pay for flexibility (the ability to do both magic fingers and clout) is additional drain.

As a matter of balance, I wouldn't let you sustain it and use it to attack. You'll notice that attack spells are, invariably, not sustainable.

Alternatively, if you *really* wanted to do the sustaining, I would have it do like F/4 stun damage per combat turn (soakable), just so you could do the really cool Vader effect.

[James McMurray]

Isn't the one that lights you on fire sustainable?

[Witness]

You certainly don't want mages everywhere doing that.
But it would be cool.
Perhaps a custom magic, requiring a rare weapon focus, that a high-end initiate might manage.
I'm still kind of gutted that Yoda didn't wield lightsabers with his much-vaunted magic-finger-fu.

[James McMurray]

According to the opening post the spell specifies which dice pool you use, so it seems like the ability to use it that way already exists.

[X-Kalibur]

[James McMurray]

Even better than sustainable. Grranted, it has a lot less general utility than magic fingers, but it makes up for it by being much more deadly.

[Lilt]

Hmm... Nice one. I'd have to rule that if the magic hands were just being used to punch then it'd do a base (Spell's Str/2)S damage, and the defender probably wouldn't be able to defend unless they were astrally percieving (as they'd be unaware of the attack from the invisible hands). If the opponent was percieving then I'd let them roll normal melee defense.

As for choking an opponent, I think it's theoretically possible. You'd firstly need to grapple the opponent, which shoudl be fairly easy if they can't defend and have an OK strength on the spell. Lets say you have a force 4 spell with 4 hits on casting. You have -4 dice (sustaining and the -2 from magic fingers itself) so with a good skill I'd expect 1 hit, 2 on a good day. That means that the opponent is immobilised. On their turn they can attempt a Body+Strength check (with a threshold of 1-2) to break free. If they somehow fail to break free, then the character with magic fingers can 'choke' and deal 4 subdual damage (resisted with body and impact armor) or attempt to affirm the hold (in this case, the defender is aware and thus can resist so this is a bad plan). If you want to hold the opponent off the ground then the magic fingers woudl probably need enough strength to carry them normally (which could be quite high, and would require an incredibly tough castign test).

All in all, I don't see it as being broken. Your damage potential is higher by repeatedly stun-bolting your opponent, and stun-bolt has a low enough drain code that you're unlikely to take drain from it.

[ornot]

Doesn't ignite require that the subject be flammable in some way?

[Abbandon]

that spell contradicts itself. First it says it is used to hold or manipulate then it says sure you can use your kung fu on a guy with it. It didnt cover combat either.

It doesnt say how much damage it would inflict on somebody if you hit them with it, it doesnt say how much "health" it has.

I would not let people melee or use firearms with it. I would let you eject the enemis clip or press buttons. Think of it only as a finger instead of a whole hand or a whole invisable combat version of the mage -2.

[ornot]

In response to the suggestoin that magic fingers be used to deal damage, I would suggest that you design a new spell for that.

While I'm all for unorthodox solutions, allowing a spell to have effects above and beyond those stated in the spell description is dubious. Magic Fingers is designed for remote fine manipulation and nothing in the description suggests it to be capable of the kind of strength needed to choke someone or pick them up and throw them around.

If it were capable of this there would be no point to clout or telekinesis. Before someone makes a point about reduced drain, note that the less potent versions of spells (for example invisibility as opposed to improved invisibilty) have been widely derided elsewhere on DS as useless, despite their reduced drain code, due to the increased utility of the more potent versions.

((EDIT I ought to state that I don't have the RAW with me, and I might be confusing the SR4 version of magic fingers with the SR3 version. If the SR4 description does suggest magic fingers be used to inflict damage then I offer my apologies))

[X-Kalibur]

[James McMurray]

[X-Kalibur]

[Lilt]

[James McMurray]

I would not make them undefended after the first hit. Whether you can see it or not you'd be trying to dodge. Perhaps a penalty should be applied, but making all attacks with them undefended makes it the ultimate combat spell: sustainable, indefensible, and capable of switching targets or performing noncombat action at will.

[Lilt]

[James McMurray]

That seems a good way to do it. It's like being shot at by a sniper. After the first shot you may not have seen him but you're definitely going to kick it into gymnastics dodge mode and start jumping and flipping like an 80s ninja (or use regular dodge or just plain reaction).

[Lagomorph]

Trying to shoot a gun from the hand would be really difficult, unless you had smartlink.

I've used magic fingers to apply explosive spray foam on a drone track.

[X-Kalibur]

[Shrike30]

One more reason for using wireless smarguns instead of skinlinked ones...

------------------------------------

Skaz rolled back behind the pallet full of bagged plascrete and groaned as his weight rested on the bullet wound in his thigh. Running for it obviously wasn't going to work.

"Throw down the gun and come out, Skaz... we just want to take you to see Eddie. That's why I had Mido here shoot you in the leg, not the face."

"And what if I don't wanna talk with Eddie?"

The volley of rifle fire was deafening inside the abandoned warehouse. Plascrete dust filled the air as Gilly's boys shot up his cover, more to make a point than anything else.

"If you don't wanna talk to Eddie, I guess that can be arranged... but he's gonna see you tonight, either way."

Frag me... why do I always get mixed up in drek like this? "Okay, okay, I'll come out... just please, don't shoot me."

"Throw the gun out, Skaz. Then we'll talk about not shooting you."

Skaz eyed the Ingram in his hands. The indicator on his AR read "22+1." Ought to be enough... "Okay..."

He leaned back against the bags of plascrete, grasped the gun in his left hand, and, focusing his concentration, imagined his right to be a few feet to the side, in the middle of the walkway. Auto, and the fire selector clicked quietly. Cam, and part of his vision became disjointed, filled with the view from the gun in his hand, rather than the eyes in his face. "... okay, here you go." His left hand tossed the gun out into the walkway, he fought a moment of vertigo as his view spun... and his "right" hand caught the gun a couple of feet off the ground, twisting it's "wrist" to bring the gun in line with the surprised-looking faces of the men standing across the warehouse. Fire...

[Edward]

The spell specifically says you can use skills at -2 dice pool and specifically mentions using them to fight.

[ornot]

Thinking back to the comments about a Vadar-esque choking manouveur... There are rules for subdual attacks, so using that with the magic fingers might get the same effect.

I like your piece of fiction there Shrike... Kudos.