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> Using a "Wealth" Attribute in SR4
phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 12:51 AM
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First off: This is not for everyone! Most (if not all) of you like bookkeeping, and keeping track of even the most miniscule amounts of Nuyen, and I applaud you. Just keep doing what you're doing, and move along.

My players and I all agree: we're tired of our games eventually turning into more resource management than actual roleplaying. We've discussed and agreed to implement a more abstract Wealth system, inspired by the same system in D20 Modern. I've been mulling over some ideas, and figured setting it as a straight Attribute (Like Edge) would be the best way to do it, and somehow compare it against gear availabilities.

Has anyone else had experience with using such a system in Shadowrun, and if so, what were your methods and results?
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ShadowDragon
post Jul 15 2006, 01:09 AM
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For little things like soybeer and club entrence fees I include it into lifestyle costs. Money is only subtracted for gear, bribes, and rent.
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Lagomorph
post Jul 15 2006, 01:30 AM
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Considering that resources can range from 0 to 50 points, that is pretty on par with attributes which have the start at 1 and max at 6. The only difference is that a 6th point would cost 25points where it doesn't in this case.

Our group has never tried anything like that, but it seems like it could work well. You could roll Wealth + Negotiations to get an item or something.

Very interesting idea!
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phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (Lagomorph)
Our group has never tried anything like that, but it seems like it could work well. You could roll Wealth + Negotiations to get an item or something.

I've been debating that exact idea. Work out a system where negotiations could be used to remporarily boost either the wealth of the buyer or the availability of the item.

Perhaps allow some kind of "shopping" skill to allow an extended test as the character "shops around" at all the good places (priceline.com, pricewatch.com, ebay, eyc - Matrix versions, of course) before buying.
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phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (Lagomorph)
Considering that resources can range from 0 to 50 points, that is pretty on par with attributes which have the start at 1 and max at 6. The only difference is that a 6th point would cost 25points where it doesn't in this case.

Also, that works with wealth on a scale of 0-5.

0 = street
1 = squatter
2 = low
3 = middle
4 = high
5 = luxury
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Lagomorph
post Jul 15 2006, 01:42 AM
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To keep it in line with other stats, you'd want to start it off at 1 = street and have 6 at luxury. That'll allow critters and paracritters to have a wealth of 0, which is to say, actually nothing.
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Edward
post Jul 15 2006, 05:11 AM
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Lagomorph. Street is actually nothing. You eat out of the trash, you sleep wherever you can get a space and your security is whatever personal weapons your carrying (not included in lifestyle cost), sounds like how stray animals live to me.

It would work well for many of the variant team types but not for shadowruners.

Shadow runers work for money, why work for money when you have a wealth stat. you could say your wealth stat represents what you get paid but what happens when the teem contains a hyper efficient samy with wealth 1 and a wanabe with no useful skills and wealth 5, think the samy will be a little upset (in charicter) that he is getting paid so much less when he is all but carrying the newbie

It would however be worth wile for any game where your on a regular retainer such as special forces, loan star, corporate security or dock wagon campaigns.

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Zen Shooter01
post Jul 15 2006, 05:48 AM
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I have found the Wealth system in D20 to be almost unworkable. I don't have the book in front of me, but as I recall, anything with a DC equal to or less than your Wealth you could automatically acquire. Anything with a cost higher than your Wealth required a D20+Wealth roll to acquire, and reduced your Wealth score by an amount determined by how much higher the cost was than your Wealth.

So if you have a Wealth 7 and a hotel room costs 6, you can apparently live in that hotel forever at no damage to your purchasing power.

If you have a Wealth of 12 and a handgun costs 11, you can go back to the gun store every day for a month and end up with 30 handguns at no damage to your purchasing power.

Also, the more Wealth you had in the first place, the more an increase meant to you. A PC with a Wealth score of 30 discovers a treasure worth 3, and is now significantly richer than he was before, because now he can automatically acquire things that cost up to 33 without reducing his Wealth. But a PC with Wealth 4 discovers the same treasure, raising his Wealth to 7, and he still can't afford to buy a shotgun without serious financial damage.

I can only recommend against the Wealth system in any game.
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phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 06:17 AM
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I appreciate your input, but your words against are falling on deaf ears. I've liked the abstract nature of the system in every game in which I've used it. I will be using it, once I get the details worked out.

So, seeing as how you've now gotten it out of your chest, care to actually contribute and offer input into making it workable?
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phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 06:25 AM
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It should be noted that I also don't run typical "commit X number of crimes for money and street rep" games. My games are more like a TV show, a Soap Opera for criminals. We focus less on bookkeeping and more on action and plot. Hell, I don't even make them keep track of regular ammo.
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James McMurray
post Jul 15 2006, 09:35 AM
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Brahm did some work here but then got upset and quit the thread. I don't know if he ever finished the project or not.
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Lilt
post Jul 15 2006, 12:40 PM
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I do like the idea of simplifying things, less bookkeeping can be good, but I don't like making money into a system that's not money. Once money isn't money then the whole dynamic of the game shifts based on what the new money is. For example, many otherwise poor runners in the game as it stands may carry a back-up clip of EX-E rounds 'just in case'. It only costs a few nuyen and can provide that extra punch when they really need it.

If a wealth system is employed then runners either can't afford the clip of Ex-E bullets any more than they can afford certain alpha/beta-grade ware (even though the bullets are cheap and the ware is expencive), or they can afford as many EX-E bullets as they like.

IE: Money is money, lumping costs into a bigger 'lifestyle' is great, making money not money will completely change the game dynamic. Perhaps even in ways you can't predict needing a lot of playtesting. If you somehow manage not to change the game dynamic then you'll probably have a complex system, at which point you're probably better-off just using money.
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Brahm
post Jul 15 2006, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray @ Jul 15 2006, 04:35 AM)
Brahm did some work here but then got upset and quit the thread. I don't know if he ever finished the project or not.

Upset? More like I didn't feel like repeatedly explaining the same things to the slow kid, which is what the thread had devolved too. :P At the momment I don't have any live game suitable for trying to apply the system in myself, so I haven't drawn it altogether into a document yet. The large majority of the system is there in the thread, it just needs gleaning and dragging together. I could try bring it together into a document, but not this weekend.

P.S. It also avoids the issue of buying things indefinately as there is minimum per use, success or not, taxxing of the Resource (Wealth) Attribute.
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Brahm
post Jul 15 2006, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Lilt)
Once money isn't money then the whole dynamic of the game shifts based on what the new money is.

Which can actually be a very good thing.

QUOTE
For example, many otherwise poor runners in the game as it stands may carry a back-up clip of EX-E rounds 'just in case'. It only costs a few nuyen and can provide that extra punch when they really need it.


That is much more a problem with the ammo design than anything else as that is pretty much how it works now. Unless your runners are going though several hundreds of rounds of purchased instead of scavanged ammo, which represents a lot of combat, the difference in money spent between the cheapest and the most expensive isn't that much of a barrier.
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phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 02:52 PM
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QUOTE (Lilt)
I do like the idea of simplifying things, less bookkeeping can be good, but I don't like making money into a system that's not money. Once money isn't money then the whole dynamic of the game shifts based on what the new money is. For example, many otherwise poor runners in the game as it stands may carry a back-up clip of EX-E rounds 'just in case'. It only costs a few nuyen and can provide that extra punch when they really need it.

If a wealth system is employed then runners either can't afford the clip of Ex-E bullets any more than they can afford certain alpha/beta-grade ware (even though the bullets are cheap and the ware is expencive), or they can afford as many EX-E bullets as they like.

IE: Money is money, lumping costs into a bigger 'lifestyle' is great, making money not money will completely change the game dynamic. Perhaps even in ways you can't predict needing a lot of playtesting. If you somehow manage not to change the game dynamic then you'll probably have a complex system, at which point you're probably better-off just using money.

I see your point, but I think you are speaking on a very broad scale. My runners are pretty good players. They don't ever try to weasel their way into cheesiness, and I personally approve every skill and piece of starting gear.

My players would never pull a "well, TECHNICALLY I can buy this APDS ammo, so I'm gonna buy 20 clips!" trick, because I'd buttrape them with it quickly after they tried.

Brahm: I read that previous thread, and I agree with your sentiment over re-explaining it.

I like the idea of "vague money" - esecially when I run games where money really isn't the focus or the reward. We play for objectives, goals, plot hooks, and more, and rarely do I ever reward my players with raw cash. Additionally, several are new to Shadowrun (but experienced elsewhere) and the idea of balancing a personal bank account in real life annoys them, let alone doing it for fun in a roleplaying game. They don't always know what to buy at creation, so have a real quick way to say "well, let's see if Johnny D. would have remembered to buy that" is a good idea.
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Lilt
post Jul 15 2006, 04:14 PM
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If you trust your players so much and approve everything personally, then why have a system (wealth attribute ETC) at-all?
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DireRadiant
post Jul 15 2006, 04:20 PM
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To provide a system of relative scale. Can PC X obtain this item, or be expected to have this item.
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phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (DireRadiant)
To provide a system of relative scale. Can PC X obtain this item, or be expected to have this item.

Exactly. If the item has a value significantly lower than their wealth, don't even worry about it, as they can easily pick it up. If not, they can make a test to see if they might be able to manipulate their finances.

In the modern day, I believe wealth could very well be a viable attribute, and the management of your wealth a viable skill. With a base amount of wealth and an apt skill, you can acquire many things that would normally seem out of range. Complex manipulation of finances and accounts in a high-profile setting could very well be a viable course of action, and pave the way for money-focused characters like brokers, accountants, and loan sharks.

Rememebr, not everyone limits their games to a handful of strategically-placed gunfights, and not everyone enjoys painstakingly keeping track of every .01 New Yen in their possession.

Hell, I myself rarely do this, and more often use a system of mental approximations to calculate whether or not I can afford something. I have balancing my checkbook in reality, why would I want to do it in a fun game? My players feel the same.
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Lilt
post Jul 15 2006, 05:35 PM
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lol. I've GMed for someone playing a broker/hacker character in shadowrun anyway. No, neither of us were or have ever been accountants so we generalised it, although we did keep track of how much money was involved and let the character's action influence the market slightly.

Also, you say that your system makes such things easy, but how does your abstract system deal with money when it is money? Do characters talk in terms like "You owe me one wealth, chummer"? Perhaps "you owe me *intermission... do do, da da, hey!*, chummer!"

When you have an out of character value for something in-game then it means that you can't talk about it directly, not without ruining the game. Money can be cinematic. Consider all of the movies where big sums of money are quoted, like "the girl dies unless I recieve 2 million dollars in unmarked bills" rather than "The girl dies unless I recieve wealth 20 in unmarked bills". You can have money without micro-management, and removing it completely is silly.

In-fact before you can convince me that it's a remotely good idea, you'll have to persuade me that it won't gimp money-based characters like sammies and riggers, or make them massively overpowered. The same goes for riggers, who could have a limitless number of drones available very cheaply. It doesn't matter that your players may be good little boys and girls, if things go badly then they can just lose a drone or two every run and not care. That removes any form of responsibility for the rigger, whilst other characters do still have to worry about being wounded.

And I'd like to draw a distinction again between keeping track of every last 0.01 nuyen and keeping money money. Big tiocket items aren't all that hard to work-out the costs for, they're usually costed in big round numbers for that purpose. Otherwise you can phase everything into lifestyle, or perhaps a slightly more expencive lifestyle.
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Brahm
post Jul 15 2006, 05:51 PM
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The linked thread actually does discuss this a little bit, but to put it more directly: Using an Attribute doesn't mean you can't speak an absolute IC number or use the term :nuyen: . You just don't bother to write down that number on your character sheet because it is largely irrelavent outside of a general magnitude, which certainly serves any cinematic purpose.

P.S. I remember another thread in the Shadowrun forum a while back from a guy that doesn't use cash directly, or even a resource Attibute for that matter. Here it is. He mentions some things in there as well about the subject of cash in the character's text.
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Phobos
post Jul 15 2006, 06:01 PM
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Okay, though I don't really like the idea of a Wealth stat in Shadowrun, I DO have an idea how to simulate this, though, so ...
('Runners should always scape for survival - if they accumulate enough wealth that they don't have to worry about money any more, the should retire on a nice island in the caribean.)

Basics
Two stats, Wealth and Savings.
- Wealth indicates your general level of monetary resources, how much you have to worry about getting food, lodging or ammunition ... more or less a redefinied Lifestyle.
- Savings indicates how much money you have accumulated for spending on new goodies.

Description
Wealth is rated as you already proposed it :
CODE
Rating   Wealth              Savings            Nuyen
0         = street            = broke            = 0
1         = squatter          = hand-in-mouth    = 500
2         = low               = poor             = 2,000
3         = middle            = average          = 5,000
4         = high              = prosperous       = 10,000
5         = luxury            = wealthy          = 100,000
6         = corporate         = rich             = 1,000,000
7         = A corporate       = filthy rich      = 10,000,000
8         = AA corporate      = see it, buy it   = 100,000,000
9         = megacorporate     = Lofwyr           = 1,000,000,000


System
Any Earnings or Purchases are represented by ratings, too, using the same scale as for Wealth and Savings.

A character has a lifestyle equal to his Wealth. He can afford any purchase with a nuyen value of two steps below his Wealth Rating at any time without taking a hit on either Wealth or Savings.
The character can make a purchase one step below his Wealth without attacking his savings by saving up from his lifestyle for a number of months determined by an extended Wealth (Purchase Rating, 1 month) Test.

A character can make any other purchase by spending his savings (up to his Savings, of course). Any purchase two steps below his Savings rating is free. Any purchase of higher value might mean the character's savings take a hit. Roll the purchase's value against the character's Savings (+ half his Wealth if Purchase rating < Wealth rating), if the purchase wins, savings are reduced by 1.

If the character needs money fast, he can sell his Wealth. By reducing Wealth by one level, he gains Savings at his previous Wealth Rating. This might result in raising Savings.

To raise Wealth, a character has to accumulate Savings equal to his Wealth + 1. His Wealth is raised by 1, and his Savings are halved.

To raise Savings, a character can simply earn money. If he earns more money at one time than his Savings rating represents, this will be his new Savings rating.
If the character earns money equal to or one less than his Savings rating, roll the earned money's value (+ half the character's Wealth if the earned money rating = Savings rating) vs. the player's Savings rating. If the earned money wins, the character's Savings are increased by 1.


... take a look at it, I'll do an example later if you want one. 'Should work, though.
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phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 06:42 PM
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Here's what I've got so far...

WEALTH IN SHADOWRUN 4

Using a Wealth system allows for a more abstract approximation of character finances. This is designed for groups whose players are not as interested in the exact balances of their characters' checking accounts, and better takes into account the concept of actual credit lines, investments, and viable assets.

This system replaces the static money system with an Attribute + Skill setup just like the core SR4 dice mechanic.


WEALTH, LIFESTYLE, CHARACTER CREATION

At character creation, you buy wealth just like any other attribute. WEalth starts at 1 for everyone, with an across-the-board racial maximum of 6. Exceptional attribute can be acquired to raise the maximum to 7.

When you purchase your wealth, it also determines your character's lifestyle. Sure, there is no law saying you can't voluntarily live a lower lifestyle. However, the Wealth rating remains the same regardless, as does the monthly payoff requirement.


USING YOUR WEALTH

Your Wealth attribute is used as the basis for a dice pool, rolled with a skill using the normal SR4 mechanic. The skill in use varies depending on the situation. The new "Finances" active skill governs your character's keenness in accounting and financial acumen. Depending on the situation, other skills might come into play. For example, if you want to intimidate someone with the enormity of your checkbook alone (foreclosure, eviction, buyout, etc), roll Wealth + Intimidation. If you want to use your Wealth to "buy" yourself into social circles, roll Wealth + Etiquette. Different unique situations will have different rules and results, so be creative, and discuss with your GM.

Every item has an associated Value rating, usually from 0 to 7, and rarely ever higher. Value tells you the number of hits you need on a Wealth check to afford the goods. To acquire something, first determine your relevant dice pool (usually Wealth + Finances) and then compare it to the Value. If you have enough to buy it with normal rules of hit-buying (exchange 4 points of pool for 1 hit), then no test is necessary, as your Wealth can easily afford the cost. If not, then make a test using your dice pool, with a threshold equal to the item's Value. Edge can be used to assist.

Much like spells and Force, your Wealth attribute limits the amount of hits you can get on this test. If the item's Value is higher than your wealth, then you cannot afford it without saving or liquidating (see below) or borrowing from someone else (teamwork, or contact roleplaying).

If you meet the threshold, you manage to find enough cash to pay for it, now carry on as you were. If not, then you don't have enough to pay for it at the moment without saving or liquidating (see below) or just waiting until the next payoff cycle of your Wealth goes through.

To determine the different numbers behind wealth, check the chart below. Each Wealth rating has an associated Lifestyle and monthly payoff. The same chart is used to find the value of an item using it's normal SR4 gear listing costs.


PAYOFF

Rather than using actual cash, the Wealth system uses an abstract measurement of income called "payoff" to keep track of how the rise and fall of a character's background resources (credit lines, investments, jobs, and more). One point of payoff is roughly equal to 100 units of base currency (nuyen), but rather than serving as an actual gauge of expendable cash, payoff works to keep your wealth rating afloat.

Payoff stockpiles are not used as cash! Payoff is used to keep your Wealth attribute afloat, and to serve as a measure of your current financial standing. Payoff can be used (with Karma) to make investments and manipulate assets, raising your Wealth rating to a higher level.


POOLING YOUR ASSETS

As with standard rules, multiple characters can use Teamwork to assist in the proper situations, using one character's wealth to cover the losses of another. Characters who loan each other money should work out their own interpersonal standards for finances and paybacks.


MAKING (and Missing) THE PAYMENTS

Wealth ratings have a monthly cost that must be paintained by your payoff. Like the normal lifestyle rules, missing payments and being in debt are not good. When the payment time comes rolling around, the character needs enough stockpiled Payoff to pay the Wealth level's payoff cost. If the character has enough, just subtract that much and keep on truckin.

However, if the character can't afford it, determine what wealth rating they can afford. Subtract that from their current rating, and then make a check with a threshold of 1 + the difference. If successful, no sweat, the credit and savings and accounts covered the difference in costs, and the character's current payoff stockpile is dropped to zero. If the test fails, then one of two things happens: Repo, or Debt.

If the character goes the Repo route, they simply lower their current Wealth by the amount by which they failed to meet the threshold, keeping their payoff stockpile where it is. Their lifestyle is immediately adjusted downward, and this can create definite roleplaying opportunities as the character seeks new digs.

If the character goes the debt route, their Wealth and Lifestyle remain the same, their payoff stockpile is dropped to zero, and they are now in debt by a payoff amount equal to whatever their previous stockpile did not cover, divided by the number of hits they got on their test.


RAISING YOUR WEALTH

Wealth is raised just like any other attribute. The maximum is six, unless you have an Exceptionl Attribute quality in Wealth, at which point the maximum is seven. In addition to the Karma cost (New rating x3), the character must also have enough payoff to pay the difference between their current wealth rating's monthly maintenance cost and the next one. This should be roleplayed, of course, as financial investments, property managements, etc. The character's lifestyle is effectively increased to the next level as well.


LIQUIDATING ASSETS

When you absolutely need something that you just can't completely afford (meaning: the value is higher than your current Wealth, or you just did not score enough hits on the check), you can attempt to liquidate some of your Wealth in order to acquire the necessary goods. When doing so, you roll your base Wealth again, adding the hits to your original roll, and applying the rule of six to the new dice. If your total hits are enough to acquire the item, then you immediately subtract from your current Payoff an amount equal to the monthly payoff cost of your current Wealth (divided by the extra hits scored on the test).

This represents your character manipulating assets, hocking valuables, and taking a dip into her actual way of life in order to attain what she desires most at the moment.


SAVING FOR LATER

You can manipulate your wealth to save up for something later, should you not be able to afford it now. This is treated as an extended test with an interval set by the GM, usually based on the rotation of your finances (every week, two weeks, twice a month, once a month, etc). The Threshold varies depending on the difference between the item's Value and your wealth. If the Value is less than or equal to your wealth, the Threshold is Value x2. For each point that it is equal to or higher, increase this multiplier by +1. You can spend Edge to make this easier, as per normal Edge rules.

During this process, you suffer a -1 to all Wealth checks (including those made to save up!), as you set aside chunks of finance to save for something important.


CODE

WEALTH/VALUE LIFESTYLE ITEM VALUE PAYOFF required
1  street  up to ~50 0
2  squatter up to ~500 10
3  low  up to ~2000 40
4  middle  up to ~5000 100
5  high  up to ~50000 1000
6  luxury  up to ~100000 2000
7  the good life up to ~250000 5000

OR

WEALTH/VALUE LIFESTYLE ITEM VALUE PAYOFF required
1  street  up to ~50 0
2  squatter up to ~500 10
3  low  up to ~2000 40
4  middle  up to ~5000 100
5  upper middle up to ~10000 200
6  high  up to ~50000 1000
7  luxury  up to ~100000 2000



NEW POSITIVE QUALITIES

"Assets"
(-5 to -30)
Each 5 BP spent on this quality gives you 10 points of recurring monthly payoff from stocks, businesses, etc.


NEW NEGATIVE QUALITIES

"Garnishments"
(5 to 30)
Each 5 BP gained from this quality gives you 10 points of recurring monthly payoff debt, be it from child support, alimony, unpaid loans, or whatever.
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Brahm
post Jul 15 2006, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Phobos)
Wealth is rated as you already proposed it :


First off I find 'corporation', well, kinda silly. If the runner is a real legitimate corp then you are playing a very different game. I know I mentioned early on in that thread about maybe having extra Lifestyles, without giving any details about where they'd get added and such. But as I got further into it I've come to think there isn't much point to it, even going up past Luxury. Maybe a single point, and call it Opulent or something. But that's about it.

Another question is when have you ever had a single runner with more than 1 million in a single take? Even 100,000 in one take is relatively rare in games I've played. Truth be told I can't recall an specific time I've seen it myself, although it might have happened. All those extra levels seem to be for NPCs, which I don't ever see having a Resources stat.

I'm not sure exactly what your issue is with a Wealth stat, if in your attempt to simulate to avoid it you basically remake but with a different way to move it up and down and a different permanancy? And introducing the issue of unlimited medium purchases.

P.S. What happens to the cash you get below the current Savings? Are you basically keeping nuyen by nuyen accounting and then adding this too? Because I really don't see much point in that.
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phasmaphobic
post Jul 15 2006, 06:48 PM
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Brahm
post Jul 15 2006, 07:02 PM
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@phasmaphobic

PAYOFF seems to me more like just tracking cash in 100 nuyen increments. Which I'm cool with, it just doesn't really need all this to bother with that. Especially if you are including all the monthly lifestyle rents too and a running PAYOFF total. That's mostly what I do with my PC right now, when I buy something I just round up to the next 100 nuyen. It is kinda rare that I have to bother rounding off anyway. It's only for the piddling little stuff, and the character is such that he rarely buys cheap dollar store type crap anyway. He isn't rich, he just isn't frugal. 8)

I do like the idea though of just having Lifestyle set by the Wealth/Resoure Attribute because the BP cost of the cash price of Lifestyle is negligable in comparison to that of an Attribute. When I get around to bringing together all my thoughts I'll include that.

P.S. I prefer the name Resource to Wealth because Resource is a much closer match to the second use, the backup check to see if you have something onhand that isn't explicitly on your inventory list. Even when you take into account any 'toolkits' listed on the inventory list.
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