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 Using a "Wealth" Attribute in SR4 |
 Jul 15 2006, 07:12 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070  |
Payoff is essentially the same as 100 bucks, but I look at it differently, as something less tangible than hard cash. It represents favors, income, markers, job payments, and more. It's like the difference between Hit Points and actual health - most people quantify DnD hit points as wound counters and health levels, when in reality they represent something far more abstract. Depending on how much the characters spend each month, payoff is a lot more variable. I based the payoff costs on double the nuyen cost of the stock lifestyles. I figure if you pay 10K to live each month, then on average you'll also have 10k to spend on goods, services, toys, and connections. Some months you might spend more, especially if your team gets a lot of action (in the boradest possible sense of the word, heh). Other months you might spend less. I think it balances out, and eliminates the constant need to check the bank account every time you go to the store to buy a box of ammunition. You use your payoff to pay for your lifestyle/resources, and the rest is handled by the attribute and approximation. I'm going to field test it tomorrow with my weekly group. I forgot about the backup check, but I think it would qork quite well. Possibly first started with a Memory check to see if the character would have remembered it, and then a resources check. Or possibly, just have them roll Edge first, to see how Fate is treating them today? Resources is a better name. I just defaulted to wealth as it is the term used in a few other systems. |
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Jul 15 2006, 07:32 PM
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#27
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
For the second use a single roll of Logic+Resource can give you memory and cash in one Attribute Only Test.
I do like the idea of Edge, without spending a point I assume, used as sort of a Fate Test if there wasn't a readily available mechanic. But I think a mechanic can be put in place there in this case. The way I looked at Resource was that it also represented investments whose ROI cover off the basics of your Lifestyle. So it is self sustaining as long as you don't try to do anything other than typical existance activities that are consistant with the Lifestyle. That seems a lot more inline with a cost of 10 BP per point, and the karma costs for raising it. Also by not having to worry about end of the month payments it provides more flexibility to the GM in choices of runs offered. Basically the GM doesn't have watch the cash/credit totals to walk the line of providing the opportunity to keep them in their house while avoiding a bit of a Monty Haul spiral. You don't need to worry so much about timing of runs too. If you are relying on a monthly Lifestyle as a cash sink then having a burst of runs in one month can quickly throw wonks into things. Not having a monthly Lifestyle payment also makes it a bit easier to manage a team with disparate Lifestyles. |
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Jul 15 2006, 07:44 PM
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#28
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Target Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 28-June 06 Member No.: 8,800 |
Brahm :
I simply took the opposite way from yours - simpler, not more complicated. I thought the goal was simply to have a way to get rid of the nuyen crunching while still having a means to keep track of the character's purchase power. There being two major considerations, genral funds for keeping up lifestyle and making small purchases, and savings for major purchases, I tried to make those the focus of attention. Though ... yes, I guess I could have avoided some of the levels, but at times a runner might want to save up an insane amount of money for a single purchase (like updating cyber to all-delta .... outch .... which might be a couple milion nuyen at once). Seems I have to do examples. Joe and Fred are shadowrunners. Joe is new in town but has kept some savings from his old hunting grounds (W2, S4) while Fred has a nice hideout and a steady supply of work, but is out of money right now due to his attempt to keep up with SOTA (W4, S1). Both would have no real problems buying up Ammo (Purchase Rating 1) or an Armor Jacket (Purchase Rating 2), but if any of them wanted to buy a nice new commlink (Purchase Rating 3), things would start to get interesting. Joe does not have enough Wealth to get it on the by, so he has to check if it's a major hit on his saving. He rolls 5 Dice (S4 + half W2) vs. 3 Dice (the Purchase) and wins - seems the commlink wasn't worth any fuzz yet. Fred cannot afford the comm with his savings, but he can save it up from his lifestyle. Rolling 4 Dice each month until he accumulates 3 hits on the second roll, he buys it on the second month. If they wanted to buy a new car (Purchase Rating 4), Fred would have to sell his lifestyle (Reduce Wealth to 3) to do so, while Joe would check his savings - 4 Dice vs. 4 Dice of the Purchase - a good chance his Savings will be reduced to 3. Neither could buy those Wired Refelxes 3 (Purchase Rating 5) they dream about. So they take on a job for some 20k nuyen (Earnings Rating 4). Fred now has Savings 4 as this Income was greater than his savings. Joe would roll 5 dice (Income Rating 4 + half W1) vs. 4 dice (Saving 4) to check if the new money is worth an increase in savings. If he wins, his Savings will rise to 5 and he can finally buy those Wired Reflexes. As you can see, the whole system is a lot more abstract and will have different dynamics than a money based system. It is not munchkin proof ... not at all ... and so I'd not recommend it for any group, but for plasma's group and purposes it might just be enough ... or even just right. If you don't like it ... hey, I don't like it either :D I just think that it is a valid approach for tracking Wealth, Savings, Income and Purchases two simple Attribues and a few rolls now and then. |
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Jul 15 2006, 08:14 PM
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#29
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
That is rather debatable. Given that, among other things, I'm really talking about having only one Attribute. :P I think the confusing part there though is I've gone a couple of ways looking at it, just thinking out loud, trying some numbers offline, reading some input from others here, and refining my approach. To that end I'll eventually have to put it together in one cohert lump instead of spread across a couple of threads.
Where as I actively avoided both of those, for reasons I've given. Above here, in a post you might not have read yet, I talk about Lifestyle payments actually creating work and hassle for the GM. Although I didn't really see Lifestyle payments in yours, so I think I might be missing something there. The savings part I talked about in the last thread where if you want something big that'll take some time to obtain that is a character goal. Something the character can let the GM know about to provide as fuel for the storyline of the game. Having it handled by a nuyen total or a savings stat is just, in my opinion, a waste of a good hook. |
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Jul 15 2006, 09:40 PM
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#30
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Hey Brahm, any chance you can make a post in response to something I say without an insult? ;)
The problem with treating something a character has to save up for as a character goal and plot hook is that every major purchase shouldn't require a plot hook to achieve. For example, if we assume that a character has the lowest wealth level possible, should a GM have to insert something into his story to account for every time that character wants to buy a tennis racket, when he could instead just let the character save up money? A wealth system should, IMO, account for the ability to save up for an item without requiring GM intervention or raising your entire wealth level. |
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Jul 16 2006, 06:28 AM
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#31
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Why not?
I mean a reason that isn't an unfounded bullshit one about a Tennis Racket. :please: Of course if you want the character to start out dirt poor and to continue as a character with next to no luck (really low Edge) or shopping savy (Negotiations) then yes he's going to have to beg, borrow, or steal to scrape together a lot of his gear like an AR or good armour. But the hook doesn't have to be used for some intricate, involved storyline. They can just ask their fixer for equipment on the cuff to owe a favor if he needs it right away, and use that as a lead-in for a future run or event. Or ask when agreeing to a run for payment of gear in lieu of most or all of their cut for a job. They aren't going to be requiring a lot of cash (refreshing) anyway to live and pick up the smaller items like a baseball bat, a few rounds of ammo, or a *cough* tennis racket. They could even ask another team member for castoff secondhand gear. Welcome to being poor. It isn't all that glamourous. In point of fact it sucks. :P
Saving up requires getting paid. Getting paid requires the so-called GM intervention of setting job prices and getting the character paid. In my experience however it tends to give a less personal feel, of the character being in the world. Instead it tends to lead to more of the PC showing up for cash then going home to order the gear from the catalogue.
Then WTH is saving up to increase a nuyen cash number doing? :wobble: If you mean you don't want to change how your character is living Lifestyle-wise? Then don't, keep describing them as living in some crappy coffin motel dive, but with lots of squirreled away cash reserves. Nice colour. Or give them another couple alternate safe-house places instead of one nicer place to live, or a girlfriend/boyfriend that they keep set up in an apartment across town for recreational visiting. |
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Jul 16 2006, 07:32 AM
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#32
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
There was actually the reverse of this argument on pattern spider and exalted forum. In exalted there is a resources background but it is supposed to represent having in income stream. And creates problems when somebody with resources 3 suddenly gets a windfall worth resources 5, he isn’t going to get that often is he. I think you may like the suggested solution of temporary resources.
Translated into SR it works like this. You have a wealth stat that represents an income stream from investments or doing odd jobs claming unemployment, describe it as you will nothing will affect it without being significant a plot device. Any item worth les than wealth squared *100 you can be assumed to be able to afford. 1=100nuyen 2=400nuyen 3=900nuyen 4=1600nuyen 5=2500nuyen sometimes you get money you cant rely on coming regularly, such as income from runs. This you can ether keep as money to spend on expensive things worth the accounting time (indeed anything you cant get with your wealth) or invest to increase your wealth rating this would cost 100 times your purchasing limit. You could also cull investments dropping your wealth a point and getting most of the money back if you needed to raise capital for some reason. The reason am making it so hard to have a really high purchasing limit is that most campaigns have money as a major motivation and I am trying to avoid having the runners get in a situation where they can live comfortably forever without taking jobs. Otherwise why risk your hoop for some corp slave called Johnson. While still allowing minor things not to be important. Edward |
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Jul 16 2006, 08:23 PM
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#33
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I see money as a major motivation as the problem. Or at the least a symptom of the problem. What would you call writing a story where you had a plot that didn't match up with the characters? The words that that jump to my mind are illogical, ill-fated, and unengaging. Yet GMs have done and continue to do this all the time with RPGs. Then after the fact people try to come up with a reason for a character to be in the plot. So to try bridge the gap they fall back on something like amassing nuyen/gold/jewels that usually isn't the natural motivation for the character. If the player even had bothered to think about the motivations for the character. Money as a motivation is nearly exclusively a crutch that is a poor substitute for character-plot cohesion. Regarding Exalted, what ways exist in the original rules to increase the resources background of a character? |
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Jul 16 2006, 08:25 PM
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#34
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Understandable. I don't see that as a problem f the system. Characters taht want to amass more money and buy better things will do it in a wealth system environment or with straight nuyen pay.
No, I mean I don't think they should have to become the type that has money squirreled away in order to reliably buy something. Some people live hand-to-mouth and have cutbacks for a while if they want to buy something normally out of their range. Those characters might not want to have to work out a special deal to get their dodge scoot (or whatever else is just barely more costly then what they can buy. They'd rather eat ramen for a couple weeks and use the excess money to buy it. YMMV |
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Jul 16 2006, 09:32 PM
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#35
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
:? :wobble: But you ARE talking about people squirreling away to buy stuff reliably, by this "eat ramen noodles" example. Incidentally I don't really see any rules for voluntarily lowering your Lifestyle level. If you miss a payment on your Lifestyle you might not have to pay it, or you might have to pay it while living under a lower Lifestyle. So for your "ramen for a couple weeks example" that you keep dragging up doesn't appear to be supported as an entirely reliable option under RAW anyway. Not that there is any real rules support for a notch lower Lifestyle, at least in the core book. Largely it seems to be more colour than anything, and maybe the GM can try give a reason for something or other happening because of it. |
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Jul 16 2006, 10:08 PM
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#36
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm talking about someone setting aside enough money to buy one thing. Increasing your wealth level means setting aside enough money to suddenly buy any number of things you couldn't afford. "Eating Ramen" is the same as saying "cut back on expenses." I assumed it was a more global expression than it was. If it makes you feel any better, replace it with "fire normal rounds instead of Ex-Ex, or anything else that equates to not spending as much money as you normally spend.
I don't think they need a rule for characters saying "I move out of my apartment and get a slot in the coffin hotel. YMMV |
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Jul 16 2006, 11:56 PM
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#37
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
So? That is entirely built into my suggestion. You just don't see it because it seems you are still stuck on viewing purchases in terms of saving up to buy something instead of buying it on credit. Plus you seem to have issues with the less concrete "maybe I'll be able to buy that this month, maybe I won't". The funny part about it is that, because Shadowrunning isn't a regular income source, that is already happening. Your character just doesn't know if you are going to get work, if they will complete the work, or if they are going to get paid for the work. The key here is what I'm talking about is more of lifestyle having it's own associated credit system. Which actually makes a lot more sense in the sixth world. For legal purchases if you start coming up with large purchases like a Eurowind, or even a more moderatedly priced vehicle, with financial background that says "lives in a cardboard box" that is going to tend to raise a red flag and bring the heat. But if you have the credit infrastructure to suggest that it makes sense for you to have it, i.e. an appropriate Lifestyle, then it'll blend in.
Generally How Things Work isn't "Well today I'm deciding to change around my lifestyle so tomorrow my base living expenses are going to immediately drop to a lot lower level." There is usually a fairly significant lag time. Remember that Lifestyle includes credit, banking account fees, rentals, morgages, and other longer term commitments. It actually doesn't seem reasonable to be able to immediately switch to a lower Lifestyle. |
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Jul 17 2006, 12:32 AM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Seems perfectly reasonable to me, but as I've said before, different game styles. I don't care for the game style or massive changes involved in making Shadowrun a wealth based system, for reasons already mentioned. You do. It's all good. I understand the idea of buying things on credit in your system, and I don't like it. IMO credit for SINless criminals should be negotiated on a case by case basis with Guido and Nunzio's House of Sharks. Otherwise you negotiate pay up front or save money by cutting expenses elsewhere. Again, that's just my preference.
They are when you want them to be. It's pretty eeasy to call up the cable company and cut your account. The same with phone, electricity, or pretty much anything that's a monthly expense. If you're only looking at a temporary change some companies will let you suspend services for a month or two, or will let you defer payment until later (the die roll method in the core rules). I lost my job in January and didn't get another until June. I know exactly how easy it is to drop expenses from a fairly good lifestyle to the bare minimum, including credit, banking account fees, rentals, mortgages, and other long term commitments. You can do most of it overnight. |
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Jul 17 2006, 02:52 AM
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#39
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Then what are you doing posting here in this thread? :spin: Ya, it is playstyle in the sense of actually attempting to make use of a fleshed out characters. For the story being told about the PCs. If you look through the Shadowrun boards you can see countless posts about GMs being real hardcases about fleshed out PCs that are functioning metahumans instead of a collection of stats. To the point of requiring, or encouraging via extra Build Points, lengthy background stories. But in my experience not only is a large write-up of the background a liability, but the effort in the focus on the personality of the character is wasted because in large part the GM just goes off and tells a story they already had cooked up before they had a sniff about what PCs they'd have. If you don't feel the need to address that, and you don't .
What you are saying in your posts certainly suggests you don't fully understand it and the implications. Things you keep saying over, and over, and over, and over again. :sleepy:
For the completely illegitamate that is pretty much what happens. But you still have to put it through a front to buy legal goods. But in the end it pretty much works out to the same thing. I just described it from a mostly [superficially] legally operating and purchasing POV.
They are when you want them to be. It's pretty eeasy to call up the cable company and cut your account. The same with phone, electricity, or pretty much anything that's a monthly expense. If you're only looking at a temporary change some companies will let you suspend services for a month or two, or will let you defer payment until later (the die roll method in the core rules).
Umm, unless you sold your house that sounds like effectively the SR skipping payments rules. You just could smooth it over because you had credit room to back it up, so you could roll payments over. If you did sell your house and managed to sell it with a possession date under a month I'd say that was either good luck or an uncommonly hot market in your area, and unless you rolled that morgage forward to a new house purchase or managed to get the buyer to assume it, quite possibly leading to a lower sale price, you are looking at eating the better part of 3 months of mortgage payments or more. From the Buying a Lifestyle section on page 262 you can see that such is not assumed. Getting out of an rental appartment is a similar deal. Best case is you aren't in a longterm lease and you only have to give a full month's notice. Well I guess the Best Case is you live in your parent's basement and you tell them you just aren't paying and if they don't like it they can go get bent.....and take it out of your share in their will. ;) Also did you pay off any credit debt that had been built up already? That is part of the lifestyle too. All together that's why there is that 1 month owned when you fail the missed payment roll. Which is not that bad of a approximation, that it would cost nearly a month's worth to roll it down to have a move on down to the slums shift. That's pretty much the reasoning behind having an at least 2 week minimum layoff/firing notice for fulltime employees. To give people some room to roll back their spending before a total crash and burn that they won't be able to pay off. Also you have to keep in mind that there are only 6 discrete levels covering a very wide range there is actually a lot. So something you might think was a lifestyle level change wouldn't nessasarily constitute a full step in SR. |
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Jul 17 2006, 12:46 PM
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#40
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
first the easy bit. In exalted to increase your wealth I believe you need to role play the acquisition of additional money generating assets. If you come into a sufficient windfall of cash you can buy such an asset but there may need to be some looking around for one that is for sale and to your liking. The cost would be far more than the annual allowance you get for having resources As to money being a poor motivation. In many other games this is true but shadow runners are professional criminals, shadow runs are how they put food on the table and pay for the gear that will allow them to survive in this very dangerous occupation. Many runners need constant maintenance of there bodies, expensive ammunition and want to maintain a high lifestyle. Unless they have an alternate sause of income this makes cash payment the most reasonable reason to put your life on the line. Occasionally a runner will want to do something for his own ends, or as a favor to a friend but when this happens his team will need a reason to go along with it. Only in very tight nit groups would there be enough loyalty to risk life and limb without token payment. This of cause assumes the campaign is playing shadow runners as apposed to gang members (all one gang) or regular employs of a government or corporate body, or members of a group with a political agenda. If they don’t share major goals then they would not work together. Why risk your life for something you don’t care about, unless you care enough about money to take the payment.
what frager is going to give credit to a sinless runner that has every chance of being dead before he can pay you back. Nobody you want to owe money to that’s for shore
but unless you have a sin you cant buy a car legally. If your using a fake sin it has a fake credit record and all they will check is if the money is available anyway, the car shop doesn’t care where you got the money provided they have it now.
sinless don’t get credit, sign rental agreements or have a mortgage. Nobody will make such a commitment with them because there is no way to enforce it. and bank fees are minimal anyway. Theoretically credit should be available to sinners and people with fake sins but it is to easy to buy a fake sin rating 5 with an excellent credit rating and take out a personal lone for the purchase of a luxury car, sell the car ditch the sin and make a profit with no logical reason why you cant do this. In real life I don’t live on credit, I don’t signe long term service contracts. I can drop my monthly expenses buy 50% without moving buy cutting off the ADSL, becoming stingy with my pre paid mobile phone, not getting beer, fast food or movies, using cheep spices instead of good curry paste and simmer sauces, not taking ekenatia every day. And at a moments notice I can reinstate all that within a day. This is not the same as the failure to pay lifestyle rules because doing that doesn’t incur any cost for missing the payment. As a casual employ I have been fired without notice in the past and had to do this, it works within a day. |
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Jul 17 2006, 01:04 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Discussing the topic. I may not want to use a wealth system, but that doesn't mean I don't have suggestions. My primary suggestion is allowing a means of saving up money for specific purchases. You don't like that idea, which is fine. There are others on this thread that may be interested. Perhaps one could lower their resource level by X, or hold back X dice for a period of time. They could then use some fraction of X on a single purchase test. So for example, runner A wants to buy a sniper rifle, but his current wealth level makes that next to impossible. He cuts back his expenses, lowering his wealth level by 4 for a month. At the end of that month he makes a test for the rifle, gaining an extra 2 dice on it. A different ratio may be in order, I just tossed that one off the top of my head as I don't have the time to run any numbers.
No, it's the "cut back on expenses to save money" method. Cutting off a phone and cable is a far cry from skipping a payment. What happens is that you cut off all unnecessary expenses: cell phone, cable, eating out, buying new gaming books, etc. Your house doesn't change, but your lifestyle drops dramatically.
Not in Texas, and almost certainly not in Shadowrun. A lot of places do it, but it's a courtesy, not a requirement. My employer didn't. It was "welcome back from Christmas, goodbye." |
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Jul 17 2006, 02:45 PM
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#42
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Your lifestyle might have changed in your opinion, but I doubt that would constitute a Lifestyle change in SR. At least not at first. Skipping Payments is a rules mechanic label that you are taking quite too literally. The payment it is refering to skipping is the whole lump of money in, not individual payments of bills and stuff. So you keep the same broad Lifestyle catagory without any income directed to it. Keep in mind that it is a rough approximation so you can play B&E Criminal and not worry about playing Balance the Household Budget.
:rotfl: Well that's what you get for living in a backwoods state that eschews pinko communist ideas like labour laws. At least here in Alberta the laws are on the books. Even if they largely get ignored a lot, that one still gets enforced. :)
I wouldn't mind so much you discussing it all with you so much if you weren't so damn unable to grasp the concepts. :? You've managed to drag yet another thread down into me re-explaining things to you that you seem just too thick to grasp. :( No it doesn't seem to be just a matter of you not agreeing, it is a matter of you simply not understanding. I'm gone. |
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Jul 17 2006, 03:17 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It changed according to the lifestyle definitions given in the core rules. If you're tired of re-explaining then why not just stop? I'm discussing a different brand of wealth system then what you are proposing. As such, you don't really need to reply to anything I post on this topic. I've already stated that: 1) I don't like having to increase your wealth level or jump through some roleplaying hoops to buy a single item. 2) I like the ability to "eat ramen" to save money. In other words, the ability to temporarily lower one's lifestyle. Your system includes the two things I don't like, so I don't like your system. You are of course free to use whatever system you want to use, as is everybody else here. As such, please feel free to ignore my posts, as they are not directed at your system. |
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Jul 17 2006, 06:02 PM
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#44
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I have now [edit: ok, I'll slip in one as an little example, but not cover everything in your post]. I was because you were continuing to misunderstand and therefore indirectly misrepresent what I had said. Along with saying generally stupid shit. Like this:
The later certainly is covered by my suggestion. The former isn't actually covered by RAW without risk of owing a lot more money. Possibly to some very nasty people. Now I if you'll excuse me I'll just move on a more productive conversation.... :wobble: :love: |
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Jul 17 2006, 06:12 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I was trying to avoid bringing this up, as part of the "kinder, gentler" James" but for some reason you still think it's odd that people can't follow what you're saying. Here's an idea, if you want people to easily understand what you're saying, don't make your ramblings disjointed, spread out, and incoherent.
If you're going to insult people for not understanding you when you are disjointed, spread out, and incoherent, then you probably want to avoid telling everyone that your writings are disjointed, spread out, and incoherent. Also, what the hell is a "discussion conversation?" More incoherent ramblings that others are supposed to understand? Edit: I see you stealth fixed the post. Good job covering up one of your maaaany errors. LOL |
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Jul 17 2006, 07:40 PM
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#46
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
@Edward Thanks for the info on Exalted. I had given some consideration to providing an alternate method for increasing Resources other than karma. Something like what is sorely missing from the SR4 BBB, improvment of a Contract's Loyalty, or even Connection, during play. Actually it is even worse in that there is no RAW way to improve a Contact or make a new Contact, even with karma. :(
See there you are already taking about not money, not even really gear, but survival. The motivation isn't money. It is survival. Although I'd argue that usually just surviving generally isn't living. :P Maybe your SR game is heavy on the bleak tones, and just surviving is an accomplishment in itself. But even then if you aren't headed somewhere it is unlikely you'll get anywhere. A story that goes no where usually gets dull quickly. Run, buy weapons, run, buy ammo, run, buy widget, run, rinse, repeat, die.
I'd expect that a Loyalty 4 and up Contact to extend sizable markers for cash, goods, or favours. Even going as low as a Loyalty 2 Contact, treating you as a Regular customer, might extend a small amount of credit. If your team generally doesn't treat each other, superficially or truely, as at least a Loyaly 3 type of relationship I suggest you shouldn't be using the term Team. Incidentally currently my PC is owed a big favour by another team member. Literally a run-on-Aztech...in-the-Yucatan sized favour. And he isn't even particularly close to that runner, it is pretty much a business deal. However he has also tacked on a sizable premium to the inherent risk of this credit. So it is going to be a doozy of a marker when it gets called in. 8)
Certainly, if the characters are designed incompatible! If the characters are such that there is no common meshing plot for the GM to match up with then we have a breakdown even further up the chain!
Oh hell ya you don't want to be indebted to them! :cyber: Yet everyday there are RL people that go to people that they don't want to owe money to. :) A few of them even make it out the other side intact and all digits accounted for. Life is rough.
The whole Fake SIN interaction with Lifestyle, and even purchasing items, has kind of been bothering me. I've just not figured out where to sit on it yet. If you read through the text you'll see that credit, banking services, and paying for all of it is split into both SINs and Lifestyles. SINs and Lifestyles are also inherently interrelated, but that relationship is poorly explained and without mechanics to handle it. :( It is sort of in a similar state to what Contacts were prior to SR3. Ill defined and lacking solid resolution mechanics and details in the rules. Similar could be argued about Fake SINs, especially where they interact with real SINs and Lifestyles.
Most increments in Lifestyle involve a 4-fold, not 2-fold, change. The one that is 2-fold, Middle to High, is then followed by a 10-fold change from High to the minimum for Luxury. Which suggests to me maybe the High Lifestyle cost should have been closer to 20K than 10K. But without there being actual mechanics behind the Lifestyle that is hard to argue definatively.
Sometimes when you miss a payment in SR4 you still have to pay. So results of missing a payment in SR4 always costs from a risk analysis point of view in a very real and fairly tangible way. Roughly speaking on average skipping 3 payments in a row means you'll end up paying about 1.2 Months of your current Lifestyle instead of 3 times. Which makes it one hell of a deal, expect that if you do fail the roll you'll often owe a Lifestyle worth of money to people that you don't want to owe money too. And you'll could end up spending some money and living in a lower Lifestyle, not that that matters much by the rules currently. :( EDIT: Incidentally that is probably the best reason for having High Lifestyle at 20K. Otherwise it is actually cheaper to skip payments at High than it is to always pay a Middle Lifestyle. :lick: |
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Jul 17 2006, 07:47 PM
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
It was editted within a couple minutes of the original post. *shrug* Apologies for the confusion.
I'm insulting you by pointing you just aren't making sense. Notice where I mentioned to someone else that yes things are a bit spread out, so hard to pick up on. I cut slack for that. With you it is the things you are saying, about things that have been directly addressed to you already at least once. Now bugger off unless you are going to add understanding, as previously suggested, to that "kinder, gentler James". |
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Jul 17 2006, 08:01 PM
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#48
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Yet again you continue responding. I guess you lied when you said you were done? So now we have a stealth-editing, lying, rambling, incoherent, and disjointed poster. :rotfl:
I'm not making sense in regards to your wealth system, but if you'll notice, I've already said that my comments are general ideas for what makes a good wealth system. The ones directed at your ideas have basically been "I don't like it because..." Yes, your system handles saving money, but it doesn't do it in a way I like. I said that already. Your system (at least what I can glean from the disjointed, spread out, and incoherent ramblings) does not match my ideas of what makes a good wealth system. I said that already as well. I've also said IMO and YMMV. Get over yourself. |
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Jul 17 2006, 08:04 PM
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#49
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
*an automated reminder* :pumpkin:
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Jul 17 2006, 08:12 PM
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#50
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So much for "I'm out," eh?
By the way if you type something in, it isn't automated. |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 12th April 2022 - 04:56 AM |
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