 AR combat Tactics, Using drones for visibility aid |
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 Jul 18 2006, 12:54 PM
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#1
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948  |
Ok, I’m gonna stretch the possibilities a little.
Could I do this? I have a SB Microskimmer with a Camera, (Image Link, Smartlink and Image Enhancement 3). It sits at the other side of the warehouse I’ve snuck into. Im presently hidden behind a crate while an unknown assailant is taking pot shots at me. According to the image feed from the drone the attacker is hiding behind a wall (Good Cover) and shooting through a small hole, I can hardly see the gun – but the drone has a full body view of the assailant. According to SR4 a subscription list of a device is System X2. A pistol with a smartlink would be a rating 3 (Standard Electronic Device) and can have 6 other devices subscribed. I assign the Drone smartlink to subscribe to the gun (usign the signal of my commlink that the gun is linked through) and my own implanted smartlink to subscribe to the gun too. My image link shows the drones POW where my pistol shot should hit according to the data it gets from the gun and centers the crosshair on the fully visible target. My own gun aims at a spot a few inches beside the protruding barrel according to my own POW where the targeting reticule is aimed at the area where the attacker is shooting from. What modifiers would apply? Visibility modifiers: Yes Blind Fire: No (I see him) Good Cover: No (I STILL see him) Shooting through Barriers: Yes (There is still a wall between us) Having a drone giving tactical information is quite useful but I wonder if I would even need to equip the drone with a smartlink in the first place, wouldn’t the image link be enough? |
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Jul 18 2006, 01:14 PM
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#2
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure. In fact, you would just subscribe the drone and use Edit to transform the image from the drone to conform to your your PoV, then overlay it - making the barrier virtually transparent. |
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Jul 18 2006, 01:35 PM
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#3
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Hmm, well, that would work too. But wouldn't the information from the drone be more accurate if it gave it's own targetting reticule on the target? At least I would be able to skip the Edit test. |
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Jul 18 2006, 01:57 PM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,711 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,716 |
Hmmmm. My first thought is i dont like this idea although i cant think of any reason why. Besides drones what about other characters who can tranmit their data to the rest of the team. If a runner and a bad guy are in a room hiding from each other and the target has good cover from the runner does that mean the guy with the heavy machine gun with XX ammo can unload into the target through a wall and have it count as good cover instead of blind fire? The target still gets the barrier.
This would be great for needle ammo. It would totally bypass barriers or only count them as half and have like -2 or -4 damage to a gun. Its totally weak but it lets you easily shoot through walls and stuff. I dont have enough experience to comment on this though. |
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Jul 18 2006, 02:01 PM
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#5
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, this to me sounds a bit like a indirect fire test, like what they had in SR3 cannon companion...
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Jul 18 2006, 02:16 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
In a way it IS indirect fire but at the same time you get real time AR information that basically makes walls moot as long as you have something that can pinpoint a targets location for you behind the wall (be it a camera, drone or other sensor on that side of the wall. It’s…direct indirect fire? You fire on something you cannot see with your normal vision but your AR information overlay gives you a perfect picture. |
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Jul 18 2006, 02:31 PM
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#7
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thing is, unless the drone is located at exactly the same height as the users eyes, and looking in the same direction, at best you can get a outline or aproximation of where the person is related to your own location.
i dont think they have developed a esper device in SR yes, so you cant extract data on hidden surfaces from video or still images... |
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Jul 18 2006, 02:39 PM
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#8
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Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 26-June 06 Member No.: 8,783 |
I'd allow this. Why? Because it's cool, fairly situation-specific, and hard to abuse. I like my players to get creative.
I did say "hard to abuse," not impossible. Were it to be abused, I'd have to narrow its applicability considerably. -S |
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Jul 18 2006, 02:39 PM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, that could be circumvented with a laser range finder on the drone and it's own smartlink. Crossreference the information from the two smartlinks and you would be able to have exact information about the targets actual location - especially if both the drone and character are accessed to the matrix and can use GPS to get their own exact locations. It can be done, SR4 just dont give any hard rules about it. Hardware wise it can be done and I would be surprised if the computing power of SR4 would be unable to do it. |
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Jul 18 2006, 02:46 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
The issue with GPS location is the margin of error. In good units today it's something like +/1 one meter. That's fine for navigating ten thousand miles across a mountain range, in fact it's great! However, in a gunfight it means you can miss your target by three feet, which is not so great.
I'd allow this kind of bounced targetting if someone spent an action using the appropriate computer based skills to put it all together - just something else for the hackers in the bunch, I suppose. You could always use it for grenades, of course :) |
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Jul 18 2006, 03:58 PM
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#11
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That doesn't really matter: Edit can extrapolate a 3D-Version of the scene. That can, depending on GM judgement, directly be used or incorporated into a MapSoft to achieve the desired overlay result. |
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Jul 18 2006, 04:01 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 22-March 05 From: Milwaukee Member No.: 7,210 |
It is blind fire... you don't see him, your drone does. So in effect you can use your drone to spot the enemies location, but you still can't see him.
In this situation, if your character doesn't know where he is being shot at from, and a drone tells him where the enemy is, you can either take a simple to observe and try to spot the enemy from your vantage point, or you can fire blindly. Until you actually spot the enemy I'd give you the -6 and make you use intuition. If you tried to spot the enemy I'd give you bonus dice equal to your drone's sensor rating. If you did spot the enemy I'd reduce the blind fire modifier to good cover and give you a -4. If you didn't have a drone you would have no choice but to fire blind fire and also give you a -4 to spot the enemy on your observation roll because of his good cover. With the drone I'd give you back some dice equal to your sensor rating to spot the enemy. Now as far as subscribing devices, you can subscribe your guns smartgun link to your drone. But then your drone gets the bonuses when firing the gun, not you. And since you have the gun it doesn't make much since. Also, if you wanted to use your drone to fire at the enemy you could use all the normal rules to do that (assuming your drone had a gun). |
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Jul 18 2006, 04:15 PM
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#13
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The back-up plan Group: Retired Admins Posts: 8,423 Joined: 15-January 03 From: San Diego Member No.: 3,910 |
For my two cents, I'd call it blind fire. Though because you have the drone back there, I would say that you qualify for the extra dice from enhanced AR information.
+1--Drone can transmit video feed etc. +2 --Drone can transmit Video feed etc, plus Smartlink info. +3--Drone can transmit Video, Smartlink, and telemetry via rangefinder and gps. Feel free to substitute Blind Fire for good cover depending on the situation. |
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Jul 18 2006, 04:22 PM
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#14
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I had this come up the other day. The way I handled it was to give the -6 penalty from blind fire, but give the maximum AR bonus of +3 (since in my case the character had two cameras on the target giving a very accurate position, see pg 208 for the sidebar on AR modifiers) Also, I let the character use Agility rather than Intuition, since she did have something to aim specifically at. Oh, and of course firing through a barrier gave the target some armor (in this case mirrored ballistic glass). So all in all, the only penalties I gave were effectively -3 dice and some armor for the target.
edit: Wow, posted the same time as McQuillan. Funny that I said basically the same thing. |
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Jul 18 2006, 04:40 PM
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#15
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In fact, you can perfectly see him - just like the wall just has gotten transparent. |
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Jul 18 2006, 04:42 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Where does it state that I use Intuition when using blind fire? I would use the drone to create an AR enviroment where I can see my target and then shoot using my own gun that I'm holding. How would that normally require intuition? |
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Jul 18 2006, 05:16 PM
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#17
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In the combat section.
It wouldn't - if the data is real. If not, you simply miss the real target, but might shoot the virtual one... ;) |
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Jul 18 2006, 05:58 PM
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#18
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
McQuillan does it the way that I do it. The drone is able to provide up to a +3 AR bonus to the shooter. That's it.
A buddy of mine is a sniper on a rooftop across the way. I'm hiding out on the rooftop he's covering, out of ammunition, and trying to avoid getting shot by the other guy on the rooftop. Sadly, with all the big HVAC conduits and ducts and everything else on the rooftop (and the fact that he's aware there's a sniper) the guy stalking me isn't in my sniper buddy's line of sight. If i stick the (empty) gun around the corner, I can get a guncam image of where, exactly, my opponent is. With Edit, I can do the math for my sniper buddy, or if he's more of the dedicated marksman type he probably has the equipment to do it himself. Then, while I'm getting laughed at for pointing an empty gun at someone, my sniper buddy makes his shot, taking the penalty for blind fire but getting a +2 or +3 from the AR bonus, partially counteracting the -6 for blind fire. If I'm lucky (and if he's good), that APDS round is going to go right through the sheet metal ducting and give my stalker a real big surprise. |
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Jul 18 2006, 06:13 PM
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#19
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
err, may i ask what book your reading from? sure the edit progam can be used to create a 3d shape from say a laser or higher resolution radar scan, but at best you would get a single color 3d model in the shape of whoever is behind said wall. and then you would need to have a scanner on both sides of him to make sure you get all the data... i would present it more like the classical hollywood heat vision, but using single color shapes. and that is hardly equivalent to be wall becoming transparent (if so then you would be able to read the text of the t-shirt the enemy is wearing, watch the news on the tv behind him and so on). btw, i dont think the drone would need a smartlink of its own. what it would need is a gps location of its own and a range finder (should be part of most drone sensory kits). that, and your comlink knowing your location would be able to posision a shape of some kind by using triangulation. then you would use your smartlink equiped weapon to aim at said shape. |
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Jul 18 2006, 06:39 PM
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#20
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
If the drone or character has an active edit program the character should be able to create a virtual representation of the target and the (lets assume a room) behind a wall.
Not only would the character gain useful tactical information about the target and the room itself. Removing visibility penalties like blind fire would be wrong and the AR bonus would definitely apply. Apart from the AR bonu one does get a live feed from the targets, always knowing where they are - that bonus is worth a lot more than the AR bonus. |
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Jul 18 2006, 07:34 PM
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#21
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
May I ask you what book you didn't read? ;)
Edit can fake any surveillance sensor footage on the fly - so it can create fitting sceneries on the fly, based on minimal input... and the abilites of the user. The input generated by drone sensors would be sufficient in 2070, as would the one by cameras or cybereyes.
How boring and unintuitive. ;)
That depends what data you actually have and what has to be 'guessed'. The more input, the merrier, sure. |
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Jul 18 2006, 08:11 PM
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#22
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i read the part about being able to fake surveillance as the good old:
step 1: record a nice length of nothing happening from said sensor. step 2: play said recording back in a loop. to any observer it will seems like there is nothing happening in front of the sensor... in the end its a question of what you (or your gm) put into the word alter (sadly a all to vague word to use in a rpg). ugh, just recalled that there is "trid" available in SR. a trid camera should make you able to give a "3d" view of whatever the drone sees. problem is that for it to be effective, the drone would have to be watching from the same angle that you are. not practical if the target is right up against a wall. still, you could maybe have two drones capturing trid data from both sides and then merging that. there could still be some blank spots and i still dont think it would eliminate the blind fire modifier (alltho i may have the player roll logic rather then intuition given the extra data). i kinda like the idea of applying the max modifier for AR assistance for a trick like that. atleast until a book comes out that gives rules for indirect fire, as i think this is more or less a variant of that. |
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Jul 18 2006, 08:13 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,965 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Edinburgh, Scotland Member No.: 2,032 |
How so? The AR modifiers are already supposed to represent real-time feeds. Personally I don't like the idea of applying the AR as a bonus. I already consider the Smartlink bonus to be a +2 AR bonus, and would allow characters with particularly good target data to incorperate it for the full +3. The reason I don't like considering the situation to be Blind Fire with penalty offset by AR bonus is that you're not blind, you're just shooting at an AR target rather than a real one. If they're exactly the same then no visibility penalties shoudl be applied. There is a bullseye which is present in RL, and visible through AR in exactly the same position. Realistically, I shouldn't be at any more of a penalty when shooting the AR version of the target than the RL version of the target, so it shouldn't matter if an opaque barrier blocks my view. What does matter is how good the copy of your target is, however. I would thus remove the blind-fire penalty, but add other penalties based on the quality of the image provided. If the spotter's visibility of the target is impared then that penalty is applied, otherwise I'd apply a penalty based on a Computer+Edit test to create the image. Perhaps start at blind-fire (-6) and reduce the penalty by 1 for each hit on the Computer+Edit test, to a minimum of the visibility penalties suffered by the spotter? IE: Say a thermographic camera has picked-up a runner team sneaking through an underground corp facility in total darkness (the runners already disabled the lights). The security hacker grabs the feed and alters the angle, providing it as an AR feed for the security guards in the next room. The hacker gets 5 hits on his edit test, which would reduce the penalty from -6 to -1, except that the minimum penalty is -2 for the thermographic mode in total darkness. Now the security guards can open-fire through the intervening wall, with a -2 penalty from the IR AR feed, and the runners had better hope that the corp invested in something better than plasterboard for their internal walls. |
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Jul 18 2006, 08:19 PM
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#24
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
something tells me that im going to hope that this is a topic they cover in unwired (using AR data feeds as a targeting aid).
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Jul 18 2006, 08:40 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
Drone sensors incorporate radar and proximity sensors, I'd imagine that with communication from the commlink that a 3d representation would be capable. And with triangulation between the target, shooters commlink and drone, that an accurate shot could probably be made, especially with aid from Smart Link data being shared between both the shooter and drone. I think that'd be worth a +3 AR bonus at least, or removing of blind fire.
That being said, there's no telling if the bullet would even make it through the wall or crate the target is hiding behind, but you should be able to pretty accurately shoot in the right direction. |
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