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 Cyberpunk Games |
 Jul 18 2006, 04:43 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226  |
A buddy of mine wants to run a Cyberpunk game but prefers that it not be set in the shadowrun universe.
Someone posted a link to one that had Psyonics instead of magic, but I can't seem to find it. What are your suggestions to a non-ShadowRun Cyberpunk style games. |
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Jul 18 2006, 05:44 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
To get a better bead on what he's looking for, what part of the universe is he adverse to? The fans? |
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Jul 18 2006, 06:15 PM
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#3
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Seems like he doesn't like mixing up fantasy with his cyberpunk.
Well, there's the d20 Modern lineup of Cyberpunk (Cyberscape, which requires Future). It's not totally cyberpunk, but it's fairly close, all things considered. There's also Cyberpunk, which is made by R. Talsorian games. GURPS, I'm told, does well with Cyberpunk as well. |
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Jul 18 2006, 07:00 PM
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#4
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
There's also Ex Machina (although the example setting on GoO's website are all post-cyberpunk), but it's Tri-Stat.
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Jul 19 2006, 05:50 PM
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#5
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
What's the Tri-Stat set like? I've seen Ex Machina and thought about picking it up, but I never take time to read through the mechanics.
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Jul 19 2006, 07:26 PM
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#6
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
A couple of Ex Mach reviews:
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/10/10835.phtml http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11053.phtml Personally I was never a huge fan of the Tri-Stat system, but Ex Machina is in many ways one of GoO's best books, and even if you never end up using the rules material I think that the book has a lot to offer, between the discussions of the cyberpunk genre and the four settings. |
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Jul 19 2006, 10:10 PM
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#7
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
That first review is hilarious.
Yes, that silly Japanese economy. Only the second largest in the world behind the U.S. with a lot less based on shadow wealth (based upon credit).
Thank you for missing the very essence of cyberpunk. Moving on...
Uh, sure. A post-Cp and a transhuman space game are Cp, but Cyberpunk (any version) isn't... Right. I have to seriously wonder how much thought this person has ever actually put into any game if they can't see beyond hack and slash (which, apparently, means that every RPG game is the same D&D ripoff to extend his line of thinking). There is a great deal of thought into pretty much any real Cp game (CP20xx; GURPS CP; SR1, 2 and part of 3). Unfortunately, he presumes that players are so stupid they need it force-fed to them. Pthbbbt, on that.
Gee, generalize much? And every RPG character is a brain-dead action hero killer.
Ooh... He actually gets it! The problem is that Ex Machina presumes that all the old Cp fiction is so silly and useless that you have to work from a perspective of settings which are all based on Wired articles or GWB-ear left-wing nutjob paranoia (Underworld). The other problem is that it just feeds the reader simplistic overviews of what they should effectively be thinking NOW, and miss the boat when the issue is the vast wealth of issues that served as a basis for the actual genre. Which is basically the same thing most of the other Cp games have done (e.g., CP203x and SR4). It amazes me how far away the games have slipped from trying to represent the "punk" part as well as the "cyber." The second's pretty amusing, too.
No, actually it isn't just the social effects of new technology. It's the social, political, and economic effects of a world where the world when the punk movement formed continued unabated in conjunction with the advance of technology designed for the "fascists" and not for consumers or the people.
Well, so much for being cyberpunk. The original V for Vendetta comic is more cyberpunk than any of the settings. The movie version is the kind of dreck that gets left with when trying to incorporate modern biases and completely unrelated events to the existing material. Ultimately, the genre is based on a punk conflict that has, at it's core two extremes which are in complete conflict with each other (politically, socially, economically, militarily, etc.): anarchism and fascism (real, honest to god fascism. Not "George W. Bush is a fascist" crap). To be fair, the Underworld setting is pretty damn close except for the fact that it betrays any sort of punk spirit that you may be able to actually change part of the world for (the perceived) better. It's just dystopic instead. Cp relies on some measure, however small, of faith in the protagonists. Otherwise, what's the point? Daedelus is as close as the games comes to "getting" it when viewed in this conflict. However, it does lack the assumptions that there is an intentionally-created underclass and that the "square" world lives in far more fear of, well, everything. |
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Jul 20 2006, 04:46 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
That and he isn't really thrilled about the history. |
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Jul 20 2006, 08:07 AM
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#9
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Thanks for the links. Unfortunately (unfortunate because I was looking forward to a different CP game, just to try) it seems that the mechanics are sorely lacking in depth. Granted, I'm basing that solely off that second review's short blurb on them, but still I am left feeling a resounding "Meh".
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Jul 20 2006, 09:11 AM
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#10
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Any specific part? I've tried rewriting it, and it's damn near impossible to get to the game time of SR if you change the big stuff.
Problem is that, really, between SR, CP201x/2x/3x, and GURPS Cyberpunk (which was written by one of the original SR devs, Paul Hume) - SR's is the least batshit. |
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Jul 20 2006, 10:36 AM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
No. There is a very visible anti-fascist or antiauthoritarian plot element in several cyberpunk books and short stories, often combined with a DIY, rebellious underground; cases in point include the Eclipse Trilogy. However, it is a mistake to say that this one small conflict is the central conflict of the genre. |
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Jul 20 2006, 11:18 AM
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#12
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Oh, really? Then what, pray tell, is the central conflict, oh Enlightened One?
Alienation? Yeah... Please. Fritz Pappenheim covered that ground long ago in Alienation and the Modern Man - and that was based on an analysis of Marx. And no, I cannot believe for the second that alienation is limited to technology. It's shortsighted and just ignorant. Alienation is a symptom, not a thesis, of the genre. The conflict would appear to be at its core about Power and Control - something which pretty much fits into the conflict in which I described. And something which was a matter of pretty much everything, including one's own self, humanity, place in the world, as well as the world itself. I also said it was based on, not comprised of. The various punk themes (not just DIY, but all manner of them) fill all of the early books. And then somehow they just... Went away. |
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Jul 20 2006, 01:13 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
I'd like to know what your specific list of "all the early books" is.
The truth is, nothing really new happened in cyberpunk. The various science fiction elements and themes were present in preceding fiction. There were no universal common themes. If there was a unifying element to the fiction it was a pervading attitude and a sense of community - as demonstratably noted in the Mirrorshades anthology and the wide number of collaborations between group members. |
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Jul 20 2006, 04:05 PM
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#14
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I think you were asking me? In which case: I don't particularly care for the idea of the three main stats, and the skill system seems underemphasized (which even comes up in the review specifically). Sure, you could fix it, but why bother when there are already better, more encompassing systems? |
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Jul 20 2006, 05:09 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
CP games from best to worst:
Cyberpunk 2020 from R. Talsorian: The world makes a lot more sense than most others, the system is fast-paced and rugged. Nice, strong system that gives you either a "weak state, big corps" environment with the US or a "jackboots and leather raincoats" setting with corporate Europe. Well-developed space setting also. GURPS 3rd Ed from SJ Games GURPS had a world book (Cyberworld, CW) and a Genre-Book (Cyberpunk, CP) out. Most of the Cyberware could also be found in the two UltraTech books. CW is a low cyber, big states take on the world in general and the US in specific (Thing the wet dream of Cheney's owners and Adolf Eichmann combined) Cyberware is new and often experimental. CP is a "build your own" book with some nice ideas and Cyber-Packages. Cyberpunk 3.0 from Talsorian: Sadly 3.0 goes into the direction of the bodily wastes known as "Transhumanism". The rules system is a modernised version of Cyberpunk 2020 as is the world. Some good ideas to plunder but still too young Shadowrung 3rd Ed from "That company": Easily the "worst game system ever" with a so-so background. Before the last SotA books the balance between Cyberpunk and MagesRUs was somewhat present and as long as you ignored whatever product came from the german side of "That company" it was playable in general. Cybergeneration by Talsorian: The worst because of the background (playing mutated children in a post Cyberpunk 2020 background) and the dumbed down game system. |
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Jul 21 2006, 02:18 PM
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#16
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I have read a ton of cyberpunk and the entire CP2020 manual and still couldn't run it. There's a lot of background stuff the manual doesn't get into, which means unless you already know your world and you're just looking for a backdrop, you're almost certainly going to go against the intended game world. It also suffers from tremendous power creep with the cyberware.
Birdy - are you being sarcastic about Shadowrun? If it's such a bad system, why are you posting on a Shadowrun forum? |
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Jul 21 2006, 03:34 PM
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#17
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 16,898 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Mr. Bush's fascism is real and honest-to-god, though certainly less… advanced? Immoderate doesn't seem like the right word. …than many. As for cyberpunk, it has always been about the '80s, even when it (or rather its prototype) was being written by Philip K. Dick in the '60s. ~J |
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Jul 21 2006, 05:26 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Let's just say it this way: If you can not GM Cyberpunk 2020 after really reading the basic rules book and one or two novels, you can't GM ANY Cyberpunk-style game! And no, I am not sarcastic about SR. It has been steadily going towards Mage: The Overpowered for the last years and the german products (and lately the Stuff FanPro brought out) are to blame for it. Occasionally GM'ing a (heavily skewed against Mages&Metas) Shadowrun is for me like selling cheap Mariuana is for a Dealer: You get some of the D&D crowd hooked by promising them their Magic&Feys fix, than you get them to taste the real good stuff like CP 2020. |
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Jul 22 2006, 04:47 PM
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#19
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Bah, you might not like the mechanics much, but someone that can say
and
in the same post isn't paying attention. |
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Jul 22 2006, 05:04 PM
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#20
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Err... Thanks. I've only been running Shadowrun for three years, but I guess that doesn't count for anything. I'm also really not sure how you can complain about Shadowrun being overpowered when Cyberpunk has rules for hands that shoot tiny missiles. |
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Jul 24 2006, 01:28 PM
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#21
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Yeah, but they are tiny, how overpowered can they be?
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Jul 24 2006, 05:25 PM
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#22
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Welcome to Rules Creep. The bane of any game that keeps on putting out expansions and new versions. |
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Jul 24 2006, 06:36 PM
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#23
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Precisely. Shadowrun has done a very good job of largely keeping back the power creep in exchange for rules creep. Someone who has MitS isn't light years more powerful than someone without, but can be tremendously different, allowing him more options in play.
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Jul 24 2006, 07:54 PM
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#24
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Ah, Power Creep, that's the right term. Power Creep is hands with tiny missles Rules Creep is rules for your own spells, initiation, metamagics, foci... You get the point.
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Jul 26 2006, 09:24 AM
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#25
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Sr did get the point too. :D
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