 My Main Problem with SR4, I miss my exploding d6! |
  |
 Jul 24 2006, 05:56 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 4-January 04 From: Redbridge, London, UK Member No.: 5,957  |
Used to be, I'd meet some dodgy NPC and realise straightaway that he was easy meat. After all, he was only rolling a single die for initiative, right? And here I was, tossing out three at a time. I was bound to gun him down before he ever got off a shot.
Well, sometimes that wasn't true. More than once, I'd watch in horror as my GM rolled the goon's initiative . . . and that d6 would roll a 6, and then another 6, and before I knew it, I had a serious fight on my well-manicured hands. These days there are no surprises. I know exactly how many times I'm going to act each round, and when I gauge an NPC to be a zero threat, I no longer fear that he'll end up with more actions than me. Where's the fun in that? Sigh. With every target number a 5, gone are the days when I clung to a prayer that I could somehow hit that target-number 17 on two small dice. I liked that suspense. Everybody always had a shot, no matter how distant. The exploding d6 added an element to the game that I dearly miss. |
 |
 
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:03 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
IIRC, the rule of six didn't apply to initiative tests, but that doesn't invalidate your point.
The longshot test as a means of resolving very difficult actions seems to be one of the more dissatisfying parts of SR4, just judging by the noise on this forum. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:04 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
On the other hand, that old lady with her holdout pistol can seriously wound you, so I think it's a fair trade.
In SR3, I also knew how often my char could act, if she wasn't wounded (Initiative 10+1W6). |
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:07 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 511 Joined: 24-March 05 From: On a ledge between Heaven and Hell Member No.: 7,226 |
Don't forget NPCs can spend edge to go first as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:09 PM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Lightning Reflexes allowed it, but only if you spent too many points and crippled your character in six other ways. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:10 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Do you tell the PCs if an NPC is doing this? Do they have a chance to "match" the little old lady by spending their own edge, or does she just get to go first? i.e.:
GM: The little old lady is spending edge to go first. Player: Screw that. I spend edge too! -or- Player: Heh, heh, Little old lady. This'll be easy. GM: Roll initiative. She beats you. Player: Wha? GM: She spent edge. She shoots you. Ha-ha! Player: Bummer. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:18 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
In my case, I don't use edge for most NPCs. Only the special ones, aka the bad bosses or the good guys, like connections.
Edit: Good and bad is here solely used to describe allies or enemies :D. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:21 PM
Post
#8
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 22-March 05 From: Milwaukee Member No.: 7,210 |
Note, the the rule of six does not apply to the Long Shot test either. Also, since your only rolling your Edge in dice, which would give you at most 8 (for lucky humans) I don't think you can complete any "very difficult" tasks. On average you'll only roll 2 2/3's hits on 8 dice. If your task is "very difficult" the threshold will higher then two. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:23 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Well sure, but it's still possible as long as the threshold is less than or equal to your edge. Rolling 6 dice against a threshold of 4 can still provide that tense moment that Union Jane is looking for, I think.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:32 PM
Post
#10
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 4-January 04 From: Redbridge, London, UK Member No.: 5,957 |
Moon-Hawk: Nice sig. Hile Roland.
I do like many changes in SR4. It seems like the rules are more universal for different situations, thus requiring less study on my part as the system as a whole is easier to learn. But all target numbers the same? Bah, what's the fun in that? Isn't there some way I can keep my old target-number system and exploding 6s whilst still playing with large chunks of the SR4 rules? |
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:41 PM
Post
#11
|
|
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Thanks. Unfortunately, I have to edit the middle line of my sig because it's just over the character limit. Oh well.
It seems like there are a number of people who want a "compromise system" between SR3 and SR4. Some are trying to incorporate all the SR4 stuff they like into SR3 rules, and some are trying to house-rule SR4 to be more like SR3. It seems like a TN bonus/penalty in SR3 is roughly comparable to a dice pool penalty/bonus in SR4, but I think you'll find that anyway you come at the problem, it gets ugly quickly. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:42 PM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Personally I don't allow the use of edge to go first in an initiative pass.
IMHO edge should only be used to increase the chance of success. It should never provide instant, outright success. Now if you like exploding dice just have all dice treated as exploding all the time. (Edge or no edge) Spice things up a little. I've experimented with this. It does add a little more chance to the rolls, but on the flip side it slightly slows down game play. |
|
|
|
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:55 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 4-January 04 From: Redbridge, London, UK Member No.: 5,957 |
Example? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 24 2006, 06:57 PM
Post
#14
|
|||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
It depends on your players a bit, but I have had players who take a long time to physically complete the act of shaking and throwing dice, and rerolling every six just adds to it. Also separating the hits and misses can slow some players down, though if you use Aaron's Color Coded Dice Scheme much of that problem is eliminated. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 24 2006, 07:24 PM
Post
#15
|
|||||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Interesting item to note here, if you have the HeroScape board game (go go miniatures!) then the blue dice used for defense mark 2 of the 6 sides with shields which works well with none-edge rolls in SR4. I've considered painted 5's and 6's, but it looks like someone beat me to it. ;) |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jul 24 2006, 08:38 PM
Post
#16
|
|||||||||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
The color coded dice work pretty well. When I first saw the idea I thought it was kind of cheesey but my inner MythBuster got the better of me so I went out and got some cheap dice and some sharpies. Needless to say I've been pretty pleased with the results. One thing I might add to Aaron's original system is a color for the 6 to speed the recognition of potential exploding dice. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jul 24 2006, 09:19 PM
Post
#17
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
As I've said before, allowing Long Shot tests to explode mitigates the situation to a certain extent. That fixes the SR4 equivalent to TN 17 tension so that, no matter how high the Threshold, no matter how many dice are removed from your pool, your unlucky Ork can still throw his one Edge die and conceivably, in some distant eigenstate, pwn the ever-loving Hell out of a panzer with one punch.
|
|
|
|
|
Jul 25 2006, 03:02 PM
Post
#18
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 4-January 04 From: Redbridge, London, UK Member No.: 5,957 |
Sounds good to me. Think I'll toss this idea into the mix! |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 25 2006, 03:19 PM
Post
#19
|
|||
|
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...actually in the old SRC there was an Edge, which I think was called "Lightning Reflexes" or something like that. It allowed for the Rule Of 6 on initiative tests but only for characters who did not have any initiative boosting (via either implants, spell, or adept powers). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 25 2006, 04:31 PM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I've got a set of sixteen custom SR4 [EDIT: 16mm] dice built from blank white d6 dice. They are engraved with a Dremel and then enamelled in the engraving, not just colored. Each die was first marked 1-6 with a pencil and checked for balance. The sides to engrave were then selected based on that give close to theoretical odds, in some cases closer than in their factory condition. The hit sides are marked 'X', for the exploding side, and '/' and colored with the same green enamel used to simmulate green lights on model railroads layouts (translucent and shiny, has sort of the appearace of glowing). Two sides are left blank, one side is engraved with an 'O' and one with a single small pip in the middle. The 'O' and the pip are filled with a metalic purple that was created with a 5:1 mix of a metalic red and metalic blue, because purple is hard to find and metalic purple I was unable to find. I like how the hits/glitches stick out. I nixed the idea of just using a permanent marker on them since that tends to rub off fairly quickly with handling. I am considering also colouring the sides with permanent markers to further speed hits/glitch recognition. Haven't decided yet. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 25 2006, 04:48 PM
Post
#21
|
|||||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Pimp my dice! :eek: |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jul 25 2006, 05:15 PM
Post
#22
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You oughta offer sets for sale. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 25 2006, 05:37 PM
Post
#23
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Good grief. I think I owe you thanks. I used to think that the prep I did on my dice (seen here) was a bit obsessive. I don't think that any more. Do post pics, if you can. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 25 2006, 05:56 PM
Post
#24
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
You are welcome? :rotfl: I'll see if I can snap a couple of pictures and put it up on Flickr or something. The biggest chunk of time was lining up and buying the materials, picking the design, and setup time. You'll see included in the set is one prototype die that seemed to require too much material removal to roll proper afterward. I haven't tested it after adding paint though, so it might be OK now. I was also concerned about the enamel chipping out of the engravings on that prototype easily as they are very wide compared to what I finally used. Once I got down to the task of building them the time to do it wasn't that much, maybe 15 minutes tops per die including rolling. I just rolled the die till it came up with at least 25 hits on each side and compared the totals. I was amazed how far off from theoretical some of the dice were. A couple that scored way off I rolled for another 25+ and it came up with similar results, so it wasn't just a statistical anomoly. If I was really insistant about perfection though I should have taken it out to more rolls than that. I don't have a T table handy, but I don't think 150 rolls minimum is all that precise. It might take a while for the pictures, the rechargable battery for my camera isn't right now. :( So I'll need to find my wife's digital. I'll make sure to include in it the picture for the stencil I made for the 'O' using the base of a dice container, everything else I just freehanded with a pencil and then a Dremel, and I'm NOT any sort of art & craft inclined person. P.S. If I had any good sense about it I would have just done what you did. ;) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jul 25 2006, 09:06 PM
Post
#25
|
|||
|
Shooting Target Group: Retired Admins Posts: 1,784 Joined: 28-July 04 From: Cleveland, OH Member No.: 6,522 |
Alright, at the risk of sounding dumber than usual ... X = 6 / = 5 . = 1 O = ? I'm not sure why you have only have 2 blank sides instead of 3. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 26th April 2024 - 11:10 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.