 Cyberpunk 2020, ... in comparison to Shadowrun |
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 Jul 26 2006, 03:45 PM
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876  |
This may belong more to another thread, but I wasn't sure, so here you go!
I just picked up a copy of the old Cyberpunk 2020 game. I was wondering what those of you who are familiar with it/have played it think it might do better than Shadowrun? Worse? |
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Jul 26 2006, 04:02 PM
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#2
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
CP is nice in that it applies the cyberpunk theme to more aspects of life, I think. In Shadowrun, your average wageslave will have a datajack and nothing more. In CP, he'll have a datajack, headware memory, cyber eyes, replacement arms and a Mr. Studd. That also means that the PCs can buy more diverse ware. In SR, 90% of the ware is dedicated to killing other people or interfacing with electronics, which is fairly limiting, all told. CP, as written, also tends to be more 'street level' to begin with.
That's the good stuff. On the flip side, I have never heard of or seen an instance of a CP game which is not heavily house ruled. The rules as printed simply are not sufficient for much of what has to be done. The combat system is neat, but there's so much about the world that isn't written down, and is even contradictory between one canon text and the next, that it's really tough to know how things work. There's no metaplot to fall back on, basically. When I ran a game, one player got on my case because I let someone else have the Metal Gear armor and wear it in public. But there's nothing in the book that would indicate that would be a problem, especially in the barrens. Good luck finding how the equivalent of the SIN system works, or what security measures come standard on a car! It's very much a DIY system. It also suffers from extreme power creep, so the GM needs to know more about what to look for to curb abuses. |
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Jul 26 2006, 04:06 PM
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#3
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I played a few CP games, all turned out to be pretty deadly. The combat is really dangerous (thanks to hit location system) and long. One thing I really missed was the magic of SR. You know, spellslingers, elves, dwarves, all that. CP felt boring for me. But I enjoyed reading the chromebooks :D
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Jul 26 2006, 04:16 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Actually if you read the WorldBook(s) and/or the "Screwhead" you get exactly the stuff that according to you does not exists. It's the same with SR where the basic book is not all that useful to answer those questions. The CP universe has a strong timelineup to the 2025s that includes (Shockwave, Home/Brave, Deep Space, The general worldbooks etc) quite a bit of "Metaplot" if one wan't that stuff. It's just a lot easier to ignore since the power level of the characters is normally a bit lower that in SR. Just some elements: + Collaps of the US, War in SouthAm, Long March and Birth of the Nomads + Development of the EU, British military dictatorship and restauration + 4th Corporate war storyline + Orbitals and the related storyline CP relies a bit more on that old fashioned think called "Using your brain". MilSpec Armor in anything but a combat zone is stupid i.e. But for those who need rules for that, there's "Listen Up you primitive Screwhead". Also CP often uses the "see current system" explanation since it is far closer to the real world. I.e there IS NO SIN-system. As for the power creep, that is nicely contained in a few books that have NO background information and therefor can be locked away. And there's always the money balance - CP characters are poor. |
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Jul 26 2006, 04:18 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Who says CP has no magic? My character could make a pretty decend fireball. Granted, he needed a large material component. :D If one absolutely needs magic there are two ways: + Use the "Werwolf&Vampire" Supplement from IIRC Ianus Games + Get the Fuzion-System and backport the stuff The rest is a matter of body-sculpting. ;) As for boring/interesting: Guess that goes with the question wether you prefer the Cyber of the Magic Aspect. And the quality of the GM. Quite a lot of the GM's out there can't master a Cyberpunk universe and therefor have an easier time directing "AD&D with Gaitling-Guns" 8) |
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Jul 26 2006, 05:50 PM
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#6
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
:please: |
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Jul 26 2006, 06:01 PM
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#7
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Of course, it's fairly trivial to assume that in your SR world the average wageslave has cybereyes and a limb or two, in addition to their jack. (headware memory having been absorbed by every other device in SR4) Although, one thing I would really like to see in upcoming books is some more "civilian" 'ware. Inexpensive, not terribly useful in a Shadowrun, but flavorful. Sort of like the Mr. Studd. That, or a little bit of emphasis on how standard 'ware might be used by other people. For example, consider the percentage of the population that has 1) a halfway decent amount of money and/or health insurance and 2)arthritis. I would assume that all of these people have enhanced articulation. Not to be bad-ass, but just for treatment. Or bone density for osteoporosis. Or...or...I'm going to go make another thread about this in the SR4 area. :D |
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Jul 26 2006, 06:29 PM
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#8
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I believe I read "Listen up you primitive screwheads" and it wasn't overly useful, mostly making up for too many players taking the powerful archetypes rather than the wussy ones. I read one of the world books (can't remember which). Again, I didn't see what I was looking for. I will admit, I didn't pour over the books, so I might have missed them. I think the book that really made me realize the deficiences in the system was the one about the fixer archetypes, where it had character concepts for fixers, but had practically nothing on how they go about doing it exactly. In other words, if you haven't studied fixers somewhere else, you'll have no idea how to play the character. SR3 however, right in the main manual, has a few paragraphs about cyberware and gear in polite company. I can give you the page number if you'd like. |
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Jul 26 2006, 07:33 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
I strongly advice you re-read both the basic rulesbook and the archetype books. You clearly skimmed them without properly reading them.
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Jul 27 2006, 02:52 PM
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#10
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Strange as it may sound, I'm not especially interested in doing a "thorough reading" of a book I've already read twice so I can help you prove your point :P
Regardless, if I looked and couldn't find it, that indicates the book is either incomplete or poorly laid out. You can take your choice. |
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Jul 27 2006, 02:57 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
I take option three: You didn't read it properly. Just from the Top of my head, not having the book at hand, Wildside (The fixer book) has: + Descriptions of the various fixer archetypes + Rules for contacts, contact networks and upkeep + Rules for a black market system (Agora) I am sure a quick run-through on the weekend will deliver the rest of the facts you believe not being in there. |
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Jul 27 2006, 05:13 PM
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#12
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Point is, if it requires further research and an index isn't helpful, it's poorly laid out.
Granted, most RPG sourcebooks fall under "poorly laid out", so... YMMV |
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Jul 27 2006, 05:56 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
The weekend reference is due to the fact that the book is not in reach, not due to "I have to do research". |
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Jul 27 2006, 06:55 PM
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#14
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
1: Gatling 2: I'm not entirely sure what you think you mean, but it would seem at first glance that it means you can't run an adequate SR game. ;) Some of the CP books have great stuff for porting to SR. The chromebooks are great (there's a free web-enhancement out there somewhere in which they port an exhaustive list of CP gear straight to SR stats, although I believe those stats are for 2nd edition SR; I could be wrong, and I'd check but my desktop is in the middle of the Pacific ocean at the moment). Wildside looked good, but I left it at a store with the intention of going back for it, and it was sold the next day. Oh well. That's what Ebay is for.
My game has always had that. Why on Earth wouldn't a medical insurance having upper-middle class have cyber, not only for medical purposes but for cosmetic? (In fact, this is specifically mentioned in several sourcebooks.) So grandma has bone lacing to shore up her osteoporosis, junior has a cyber eye because he put one out doing one of those things that you hear does that, etc. It's all about taking the material given you, and making it work and make sense. |
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Jul 27 2006, 07:33 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Idolon, it's quite simple:
Most of the SR-groups I have played with (often on conventions) could just as well play AD&D, substituting automatic weapons for bows and swords. ObtW: I give a rat's piss about spelling as long as persons get the meaning. And that they did obviously. |
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Jul 27 2006, 07:54 PM
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#16
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
And most of the Vampire groups I've been with have been all about the necrophilia and Hot Lesbian Vampire Secks, instead of about, oh, y'know, the game.
I'm sure there are Vampire groups out there that aren't like what I've encountered. Doesn't mean I am going to say nobody can properly GM a Vampire game because of such situations. Painting with a broad brush will, generally, just get you laughed at, not listened to. |
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Jul 27 2006, 08:19 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876 |
So in regards to the original question, one of the only things CP2020 does "better" out of the gate than SR is its wider array of cyber for "the common folk", and possibly the combat system (if you like crunchier stuff).
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Jul 27 2006, 09:06 PM
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#18
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,546 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Exactly. So where are the rules on creating fake IDs? For disguises? For creating false credentials? What are the rules for hotwiring a car and what sort of security measures does a car have? What equipment is considered inappropriate for use in public? I have played very little CP, but all of these are questions I ran into and couldn't answer, despite pouring over the manuals. I HAVE looked, I don't plan on going back a second or third time. If you know where to find the answers, I honestly would appreciate it because I feel they're all very basic questions, and not knowing seriously impacted my enjoyment of the game. |
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Jul 27 2006, 09:19 PM
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Skill system & Task resolution system is also much faster for non-combat tasks Weapons in the basic book are better balanced against one another The limitations build into basic chargen force a feeling closer to Hardwired and other good CP fiction |
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Jul 27 2006, 09:23 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Re-Read. You might find the words "Quite a lot of". Now english thankfully is not my first language but IIRC that means "a majority but not all". Having played with quite a few groups from all across Germany, Austria and the Netherlands I'd say I have gathered enough samples to make the step from my probe space to generalisation. |
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Jul 27 2006, 10:28 PM
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#21
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
A lot of groups that I've gamed with would've been a much, much better wording of the statement.
All is a terrible all-or-nothing statement that is what makes people form ignorant opinions about things. |
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Jul 28 2006, 09:51 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Misquoting people is a habit of three species that deserve to be shot on side - Politicians, Lawyers and MBA's :D The only person who uses the Term "All" is a certain Mr. Tanka. ;) |
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Jul 28 2006, 01:55 PM
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#23
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Boy, this thread totally makes me want to play Cyberpunk!
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Jul 28 2006, 02:00 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876 |
Well, so far it certainly sounds as if it lacked much of Shadowrun's published depth, in the form of rules to cover every situation or just plain background. Not having played it myself, and only owning the corebook, I'd say I'm better off sticking with Shadowrun and just using some ideas from CP2020 (such as cyberpsychosis) where I find them.
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Jul 28 2006, 02:46 PM
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#25
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Yup, because, y'know, anyone who plays SR is just some D&D fanboi who can't let go of his magic. |
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