Hovercars and Jetpacks, Where the frag are they? Options

[WhiskeyMac]

So hovervehicles (i.e. vehicles that fly through the air) have been a presence in Shadowrun since at least 3rd edition New Seattle, displayed on the front cover. However, no stats or even a single rule have been seen about these elusive vehicles (that I can find at least). A T-Bird is similar but not quite what I'm going for. What or where would I find information about flying cars/trucks? Is there any speculation if they will be added to the canon with some solid stats through the sourcebooks?

Also, page 126 under the Pilot skill of Pilot Exotic Vehicle skill states "This skill is used for exotic vehicles such as undersea sleds, personal lifters, jet packs, hot-air balloons, etc." Where are the rules and what are the stats for jet packs? Will these be added as well? Was it a deleted vehicle because of space or just put in there as a teaser?

I'm asking because I've done some preliminary mock-ups of what I think the stats for a jet pack and hover vehicle would be in SR4. Just wondering if I need to scratch them out or not.

[Ophis]

Jetpacks fine I suppose, but NO! to flying cars. Why you ask? three words air traffic control. I always hated the cover of New Seattle, the artist was obviously mad. I could be happy with light LAV emergency vehicles but civilian ones? urrgh only mad men (in the corps and goverments) would allow it. The safety nightmare for a start...

[Adam Selene]

[Synner]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Adam Selene]

That's a hell of a lot of armor for a civilian Vector-Thrust Craft. My Сухой Штурмовик T-Bird isn't even that armored.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

[Adam Selene]

And a body of 10. Wow, they weren't kidding when they said non-compatible.

[Abbandon]

Forget flying through the air cars. I'd just like to have some bad ass anti-grav/hover vehicles, especially bikes hehe. Man You could go on some gnarly police chases with those since they cant puncture your tiress hehe. You would be 100% attacked if a go-gang ever spotted you because they would want your ride.

[ThreeGee]

[kigmatzomat]

I'm sure they exist but they aren't cost effective. Ground effect vehicles (GEVs) like hovercraft take less power to maintain lift than free-flight aircraft (like helicopters) but they still take power while sitting still. Sure, GEVs can carry huge amounts of weight, but so can tractor-trailers. Typically ground transports are volume limited before they are weight limited.

GEVs are only valid choices when the roads are non-existent and the all-terrain aspect comes to the forefront. GEVs are about as all-terrain as it gets, barring susceptibility to grit & particulate damage. This is why GEVs are a staple in the military sci-fi genre; the all-terrain capability and extremely high weight limit are worth the otherwise exhorbitant energy budget.

Pure aircraft, like Deckard police cruiser and jet packs, require a huge amount of energy, not to mention reaction mass, to keep something airborne. Wings generate lift at higher efficiencies than vectored thrust but at the expense of a much narrower operating envelope (meaing wings don't generate lift if you aren't moving forward fast enough)

Deckard's vehicle was a hybrid of wheels and VTOL. The wheels are easy to implement and don't take any significant vehicle volume with electric hub motors; they also save quite a lot of power. Again, the power budget is pretty much unacceptable for anything except military or emergency vehicles. Deckard, as an android hunter, qualifies as "emergency personnel" and gets a spiffy VTOL vehicle.

Patrolman Bob does not.

As for jet packs, a powered hang glider (like the Nightflyer in FoF) is a much more viable form of technology.

Now if you want to run Fifth Element you will need to assume that virtually limitless power is available, along with Zorg-like weaponry.

[Shrike30]

"Virtually limitless power" isn't that much of a reach for the SR world. Let's assume that our civilian aerodyne stays in the air through the use of several electrically-driven fans, with a backup electrically-operated "ground car" mode using conventional wheels and a GridGuide hookup.

Keep in mind that we've had man-portable, highly effective (and fairly inexpensive) laser weapons for at least a decade. The power packs required to operate those are lightweight and efficient (they'll fit on your back, hip, or in the grip of your handgun like a conventional magazine, depending on which laser you're talking about). Storing the power shouldn't be a problem.

Getting the power shouldn't be a problem either. The SR world has figured out fusion technology, and the apparent expense of constructing and operating these power plants is low enough that there's a few near/in Seattle alone. As the power output of a fusion plant is huge, the cost of power will have plummeted, and plugging in your aerodyne when you've gotten to work/home/the restaurant is something that people are getting used to doing today, with some of the plug-modified hybrids. You could even design the vehicle to pick up power from the GridGuide system, when it's operating in groundcar mode.

Your cruising range wouldn't be huge, but for in-city use you don't need a 200+ mile operating capability. This thing would be a toy for the well-to-do, and I can see a police model being developed simply to do high-speed response work. The Italian police have at least one Lamborghini (sp?) interceptor...

[ornot]

I'd be inclined to acknowledge the existance of flying cars and jetpacks and the like, but they would be restricted by operating and maintanence costs, strict licensing laws, range limited by small fuel tanks and so on. There certainly wouldn't be many of them and any unlicensed vehicles would stick out as a result.

While it wouldn't be too hard for a runner to get hold of one and the appropriate fake driving and ownership licenses (which would be tougher to secure than the equivilant for a regular car), considering how balkanised a city like Seattle is with extraterritorial corps everywhere and bounded on three sides by not exactly friendly nations there's a strictly imposed limit on where the thing can go. Remember anything the runners have the corps have in spades!

[Shrike30]

There's nothing quite like banking slightly to the left while flying your jetpack to avoid a cloud of starlings (of which Seattle has fraggin' millions in case you were wondering), and finding you've just triggered the Aztech Pyramid's air defense network...

[stevebugge]

[Nikoli]

But if Grid-guide can manage the streets to nearly eliminate grid-lock, they can use a similair system for ATC.

[WhiskeyMac]

But now jetpacks are canon, based off the Pilot Exotic Vehicle skill in the SR4 BBB. However, with the hover vehicle, I was thinking more along the lines of Luke's Landspeeder or a swoop bike. NOT something like the actual picture. More along the lines of an forced air vehicle with a max speed of say ... 200 with a Lone Star (law enforcement) version running at maybe 250/275. Just being able to "fly" over those potholes, dead bodies, heaps of trash, etc. would be worth the price alone. Add in some retractable wheels and you have a groundcar when you don't wanna look to suspicious.

You could even put this type of technology to use on mundane applications beside vehicles. Like cargo hauling in a warehouse. Strap the cargo down on a hover-pad, activate the unit and push with a simple hand. Oh yeah, pray to God it doesn't get away from you and pick up some inertia or someone is getting crushed by that 2 tons of soychow.

And Kigmatzomat, who says Zorg-like weaponry isn't possible? "A normal person would have asked about that little red button."

At least Shadowrun hasn't introduced the Lawgiver from Judge Dredd yet :D

[Shrike30]

You want out-there sci-fi guns? Watch UltraViolet sometime. Pocket dimensions in the magazine wells of the two machine pistols giving them a several hundred round capacity, and she's got another pocket dimension in her wristbands storing the two guns and god-knows-how-much ammunition.

Amusing to watch a reload that consists of twisting your wrists, and having bullets fall out of your armband into the bottom of your gun...

[kigmatzomat]

Jet engines typically can churn out ~7x as much thrust as they mass. So let's say that a 2,000lb vehicle has a 500lb engine engine that turns out 3500lb thrust. At 60% power it is able to hover. It also consumes about 25lbs of fuel/minute. Given that this is a wingless vehicle, if you want an hour of flight time, you need 1,600lbs of fuel. Wait, a 500lb engine + 1500lbs fuel = 2000lb with no aircraft or pilot.

A perfect engine (100% efficient) would have a 500lb engine and 750lbs of fuel, leaving 750lbs for the pilot and aircraft. Possible, but it's a dang flimsy aircraft. Hmmm, I wonder if this is why the SkyCar has so much trouble?

Do they exist in SR4? Yeah, they do. I'm sure some Richard Branson-esque individual threw a lot of money into processing power and nanomachined parts to get something with enough efficiencies and redundancies to work.

But are they common? No, they are not. Too darned expensive, too little bang for the buck. A retractible-blade helicopter is a more feasible design.

As for the Fifth Element thing, I said "you will need to assume that virtually limitless power is available, along with Zorg-like weaponry." Which doesn't mean that I think Zorg-like weaponry is impossible, just that it becomes plausible with limitless power.

[Conskill]

[Samaels Ghost]

Good luck getting your jetpack pack if you want it later. That horse is mean.

[WhiskeyMac]

Nah just bring in a jet fuel soaked apple or carrot and it will let you have it.

I think that true hover technology would be in the hands of the "well to do" as well as law enforcement and corp security. However, everything that the corps have, usually runners get a hold of. T-birds are flipping expensive and rare but maybe a more slimmed down version would be appropriate. I'm gonna throw some numbers around and prolly post my interpretation of a hover vehicle. Maybe include some links to what I think they would look like.

[Abbandon]

*Hands out tons of red cards for illegal use of reality physics in a fantasy set game. *

The energy output for my flying car is so insignificant i can power it by pedaling a bicycle.

You know why are we even talking about this. As long as you have amage on your team you can have a freaking flying tank if you want to. Summon a spirit that can materialize and poof. You make it turn into a tank and everybody jumps in and you all fly off into the sky.

[Oracle]

A Spirit powerful enough to carry a whole team? Including the statistical troll?

[Smokeskin]