The false disadvantage, Uncouth |
The false disadvantage, Uncouth |
Jul 29 2006, 06:51 PM
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#1
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
SR3 companion was filled with false disadvantge, giving edge points to PC basically for free. Getting Edge points for having enemies, for example. Happy to see that one in particular is gone (for the moment...)
But there is a new reigning king in SR4, IMO. Uncouth. Oh, if you have a charisma of 3, uncouth is a disadvantage alright. Can't default and all that. But hey, you paid 20 BP for charisma 3 which you won't be using and got 20 BP for Uncouth so no problems. Should you buy 1 point in a social skill group to mitigate, there goes your 20 BP! But if you have a charisma of 1... You already can't default. You already are gonna fail every charisma challenge tossed your way. You already ARE uncouth. And you should get an extra 20 BP? "Hey GM, I have invested no BP whatsoever in charisma or any social skill. As a result I have more BP available to boost my combat abilities. I would like you to reward this behavior by giving me an extra 20 BP." Hum. I think not. And the double cost for learning social skills is bogus ; we all know the player of an uncouth character has no intention whatsoever to invest in those skills. As result I'm likely to just ban uncouth for my upcoming campaign. You want to be uncouth and have more physical stats? Flatline charisma, buy no social skills and there you are, completely uncouth. What do you think? Infirm and Uneducated can lead to similar situations but with those it's more academic since few players would flatline two or three attributes. |
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Jul 29 2006, 08:01 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
characters who take uncooth, fall into one of two places. They are magic people who are abit crazy and have reasons to take the flaw, or they are dead men walking. Cause guess what, you big hulking troll who can't talk worth shit? Well, there is a bigger meaner troll out there that would want to hurt him, or two or whatever. You as a shadowruner live and die by the fact you can and do understand the social graces of those near by you.
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Jul 29 2006, 08:03 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
And you didn't even mention the possibility to use skillwires for social skills despite being uncouth... In the games I play social interaction is important (getting information, lying to the guards or just talk your way out of the gang war commencing around you...). |
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Jul 29 2006, 08:08 PM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
If social interaction is not a big place in the game uncouth is broken. If it's a necessary facet of existence uncouth is not worth the points.
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Jul 29 2006, 08:16 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Neither of these proposition is the point. The point is if you have a charisma of 1 and no skill, then mechanically Uncouth is a false disadvantage, regardless of the roleplaying style, because it gives 20 BP for free without any significant drawback. If you invested no BP toward charisma and social skills, you already are hopeless in any social situation and uncouth doesn't significantly change that. That's my gripe. Whether or not it is a good idea to be social moron in SR is a different debate. |
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Jul 29 2006, 08:23 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
Welcome to the club. I ban Uncouth (among other disadvantages) in my campaign as well.
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Jul 29 2006, 09:37 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
another disadvantage that is broken is sinner. WIth false sins costing 4000 (less than one build point, why wouldn't everyone take sinner.
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Jul 29 2006, 10:28 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
I disagree. Having a fake SIN doesn't mitigate the disadvantage of having a real SIN. If anything, the fact that you have a real SIN could compromise your fake one since a verification of your fake SIN could cause the real one to turn up. No matter how you look at it, somewhere in the system is a complete file about you, from what you look like, your biometrics, your family and basically everything that you have ever done up to the point where you stopped using that SIN and went into the shadows. That's definitely a drawback. It's one I encourage my players to take if their characters weren't born SINless and they lack any means in their background/contacts and skillset to explain how they could have erased their former SIN. |
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Jul 29 2006, 10:44 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
uncouth is one of those advantages where the player should be required to RP it out before getting anything out of it, IMO.
for example, if a character keeps his mouth shut all the time, he isn't uncouth... i personally would require them to spend all the karma they get on removing the uncouth flaw before they get to spend karma on anything else. essentially, if they have uncouth, and they are not being a disadvantage to the face's efforts simply by being nearby and *not* keeping the mouth shut, then you are absolutely right... they don't deserve the points, and you should charge them the cost of removing it (and possibly give penalties to the face/whoever anyways until they have). in comparison, if someone just had a charisma of 1 and no social skills, i would have to say that they might just know when to keep their mouth shut. particularly if they have a high intuition score, for example. however, high intuition brings me to my next point: unable to make social skill checks. well, let's see... what is it that you *resist* social skill checks with? oh that's right... social skill + attribute... and not always is the attribute gonna be charisma either :] so then, it looks to me like your uncouth character is also gonna have to dump willpower... you know, that stat that determines the length of your stun condition monitor? the one that lets you resist spells? the one that is absolutely critical to mages and technomancers, and just slightly less critical to everyone else, for that matter. looks the character may also have to dump intuition to get the benefit you mentioned, since according to the text con is opposed using intuition (the table says charisma though... personally, i think intuition fits better, and would use that, though). and no matter how many positive modifiers you give to the uncouth person, they still don't get to make a check unless they have the skill. not with a +1 modifier, not with a +10 modifier, not with a +100 modifier. any BP spent on contacts is also useless, since you won't be getting any social skill checks with them either. and it gives a point of notoriety, which brings you one step closer to having a public awareness rating... so overall i would say there's more disadvantages here than you might think. and not *all* social tests are done with charisma =D |
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Jul 29 2006, 11:09 PM
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#10
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
True. In that situation being socially unskilled is its own punishment. As the player learns more and more that they'll be sitting out sessions of RPing while they wait for something they can partake in to arrive they may begin to regret their decision. If the campaign is not such that those regrets would arise, uncouth is borken. nWoD's flaws system is vastly superior to the standard ssytem of "take a flaw, get some build points" IMO. Take all the flaws you want, you don't get any benefits until they actually hinder you somewhow. In this instance, just sitting there quiet wouldn't count, you'd have to actually put your foot in your mouth by reacting liket he wolves that raised you (or whatever your backstory reason for the flaw is). Hackmaster seems to handle flaws better as well. To my understanding (I haven't read the GM books) each flaw has ideas on how the GM can punish the player for taking it. A few general guidelines here and there to start the creative juices flowing is always better than just "here's the list, do with them as you will." |
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Jul 29 2006, 11:12 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
The examples in hackmaster are okay, but the massive amounts of "BP" that you gain is awful. Being Blind or a Double Amputee shouldn't make you more skilled than other heroes. It's absurd.
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Jul 29 2006, 11:18 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I don't know. I've heard being blind enhances your other senses, so if you put the points into Observation it could make sense. Of course, there's nothing in the system that forces it to make sense. That's Hackmaster though. The game is meant to be taken pseudo-seriously. You can ignore the "Gary speak" and have a serious game from it, dive full force into the "GM vs. Player" mentality and have a KoDT game, or meet somewhere in the middle.
Any "flaws for BP" system will have that problem, unless you make it so stringent that it's almost worthless. I suppose one could have the flaws come with their own inherent advantages so every one would be it's own tradeoff (such as blind giving you +2 to nonvisual perception tests, or being an amputee givign you +1 strength with your remaining arm.) That would probably take more work than it's worth though. |
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Jul 29 2006, 11:19 PM
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#13
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I haven't played nWoD, but I've read the book, and just quickly re-skimmed the relevant section, and wouldn't that be trivially easy to do with SR4 as an optional rule? No points at chargen, but Karma awards for using the flaw in game. The only major problem comes about due the variety of BP values that negative qualities offer in SR4, and balancing them against the amount of Karma given out, since giving more than 2 Karma for roleplaying flaws [on top of other roleplaying bonuses] is likely to get out of hand, especially as roleplaying flaws should obviously already be considered as part of the normal roleplaying Karma bonus. |
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Jul 29 2006, 11:31 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Yeah, our Uncouth combat hacker has to play his semi-retarded/savant character well or else he doesn't get roleplaying Karma. It's almost unfair the way we've done it. His character is harder to roleplay than everyone else's but he gets no further benfits for actually doing it right. He has to work harder for the same reward. I'm going to have to rethink that as a GM.
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Jul 29 2006, 11:44 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Yeah, you can do it with SR4, with the slight problem of flaws being different. Awarding XP based on the amount the flaw interfered could work, although it's incredibly subjective and more work for the GM.
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Jul 29 2006, 11:49 PM
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#16
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I disagree. Uncouth is always a disadvantage simply because it doubles the cost of social skills and makes defaulting impossible. Defaulting with 1 CHA is most certainly possible. All you need is a single point of Edge to spend on the longshot test. In fact, if I were going to min-max in a game with few social situations I'd just take Lucky and max out Edge instead of bothering with social skills. Likewise, should the character choose to increase its social skills the costs would be doubled. But, it is highly unlikely an uncouth character would want to do so, you may respond. My response to tat it unlikely, but possible. The cost of raising skills at low levels is small and the disadvantage of not having social skills is potentially great. There is such a thing as character growth and devolpment. Uncouth, incompetent, and similar flaws limit character growth. Eventually, a character will max out its primary speciality. If it is built correctly it will start with its primary specialty maxed out (with the xception of mages and technomancers, who can't max out). If the character wants to diversify into the social areana then uncouth is a real hinderance. |
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Jul 30 2006, 12:17 AM
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#17
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
the book say that you cant buy social skill groups if you have uncouth. so its each skill at double cost or not at all... |
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Jul 30 2006, 12:27 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-July 06 Member No.: 8,968 |
This isn't a new thing. This is the problem of the 1 Charisma Street Samurai with no etiquette at all. And the problem is usually GM's let the players bullshit FOR their characters. You know the one I'm talking about, the smooth person in real life who could talk his way out of a murder and uses that to get his 1 Charisma character out of trouble. Use it to your advantage. Isolate the offending character, put him in a situation where he can't shoot his way out and he'd better fucking lie like he was born with a silver tongue. Rig the roll so that he wins by the skin of his nose, but off-handedly suggest that he should probably try and make up for his abhorrent social skills (maybe make it a point of having whoever was facing him down with 10 dudes with guns point this out as well, like "Jesus, this whole thing could have been avoided if you just weren't such a raging asshole") ....if he does it a second time, well then he's going to die. Players suck. They will almost always powergame the edge/flaw system. Your job as a GM is to screw them with said flaws. Rare allergy? No problem, they go to new and exotic locales....or biotech greenhouses. Dark Secret? You call it. Players will make up stupid shit like "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die". But you need something guaranteed to make the players (NOT the characters) sick with disgust, like he's a convicted sex offender or something.
This is a GM fault. Any character that has such a horrible weakness should have it exploited for all its worth. If the GM is completely ignoring it and instead is simply upping his NPC's attribute ratings by a few points to compensate for the increased combat skills of this character they're doing something wrong. |
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Jul 30 2006, 12:29 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
That's a valid POV but I strongly disaprove of any implication that a Flaw should be roleplayed to truly take effect. It should have a mechanical effect. And as a matter of fact, that is how uncouth is designed. The BP awarded by the flaws will be use for mechanical advantage, so the flaws should have mechanical disadvantage. Especially when you consider that roleplaying is never a "punishment". If you roleplay an antisocial character, it's not against your will. Presumably you enjoy it. The mechanics of any game try to insure that no PC overshadow the rest of the team with his capabilities, but the roleplay is just there for fun. Example : In a campaign I play a seriously vindictive character. After some heroics in favor of a king (swashbuckling campaign), our party is grossly under rewarded. Pissed of about it, my character devise a scheme to steal the best barrels of wine from the King's wine cellar before taking leave from the King's hospitality. Was this part of the adventure the GM had prepared? No. Did this complicate things for our party? Yeah. Should I get more "BP" for playing a character prone to these kind of actions? Hell no. That crazy wine theft become part of the lore of this campaign. It was hysterical good fun. How is roleplaying my PC this way a disadvantage? The objective of the game, believe or not, isn't really to save the princess or extract the wage slave. It's to tell a good story. Even if it means your characters sometime fail in their objectives. So if you play your Shadowrunner as an antisocial prick, it's not a disadvantage. And if it leads to a good story it's worth karma. Conversely if it reduces the enjoyment of the group it's worth a deduction. But the Uncouth Flaw, as a provider of 20 BP for creation, has to provide a significant drawback to account for these mechanical advantage the PC will get.
Good point about Willpower. Guess the Uncouth PC with 1 charisma will have to wait for games to begins and use his first 8 points of Karma to gain Intimidate 1 and get rid of the only real irritant. Still, 8 points of karma VS 20 BB... More like 4 in fact because this kind of antisocial character would probably want at least one point of Intimidate anyway. |
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Jul 30 2006, 12:38 AM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Is it stated that you can't make long shot test if unaware?
True, my bad. |
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Jul 30 2006, 12:48 AM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-July 06 Member No.: 8,968 |
I kind of think you're skillfully dodging by dismissing "whether it's good to be a social moron and run the shadows" and simply making it a rule mechanics question. If you want to do algebraic equations about min/maxing that's fine, but the rules are there to support the roleplaying game, not the other way around. So to dismiss that key fact (and you'll note I completely ignored your dismissal in my reply) is somewhat dishonest. Not harping on you or anything, but simply calling uncouth "broken" without even examining the roleplay aspect of it is silly.
In my game, someone with 1-2 Charisma and no etiquette is going to die. Plain and simple. If you don't use etiquette/charisma rolls in your game, you're not really utilizing SR to even a marginally beneficial portion of what it's supposed to. Information should get your characters killed. Well, not your character(s), but any character that walks down the street without his more charismatic buddies. Anybody who has uncouth should be afraid to spend downtime outside of the house. |
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Jul 30 2006, 01:02 AM
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#22
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
It's bad to be a social moron in the shadows. Back to the regular program. |
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Jul 30 2006, 03:16 AM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-July 06 Member No.: 8,968 |
Ok. Regular program: Uncouth = Low Charisma. Low Charisma is a debilitating flaw in the hands of a good GM. In the hands of an uncreative GM, it's a tool for abuse.
Close thread. Back to the regular regular program. |
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Jul 30 2006, 03:41 AM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
:rotfl: Said with such a sense of entitlement. You got to admire that. Especially since you write : "Uncouth = Low Charisma". The whole point since post 1 being that if you have 1 in charisma and no social skill you are by definition uncouth wich means getting 20 BP on top of saving on any Charisma related BP expenditure was silly. So yeah, "Low Charisma=Uncouth". See, we agree that it is a dangerous weakness of for a runner to be socially inept. I'm just arguing that a PC with no BP invested in anything social already is Uncouth without the Uncouth quality and that this flaw is hardly worth 20 BP in these case. And since it's expensive to invest in charisma and social skill and counter productive to then take uncouth, I'm guessing most Uncouth user fall in the first categorie. And yeah, I only care about mechanical effect when it comes to the BP value of a flaw. Whatever you buy with those extra BP, it won't be roleplaying advantages! As for how such a socially inept character could survive without getting smiten by the "creative" GM, well, the same way a runner with low combat capabilities survives. By avoiding as much as possible the situations that he is inept with and relying on his team mates as much as possible to cover for his weakness (and cover for theirs). Does it always work? No. Is it the end of the PC? Well unless you keep designing contrieved scenario, not really. It can lead to entertaining scenes. To new challenges to overcome. But instant death for cause of Uncouthness? Unless the player or the GM get out of their way to make this happen, it shouldn't be. The point of a RPG isn't to "win" the mission, it's to tell a good story and these small failures due to character's weaknesses is part of it. And should he get killed in between runs just for "Walking down the street without a more charismatic buddies"? Wow. If that's being creative I'll do without. One of the most popular fiction character on SR board is usually Leon. Damn if he wasn't socially inept but hey, whaddya know, he managed to get his milk without getting shot in between missions. |
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Jul 30 2006, 04:55 AM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 39 Joined: 27-July 06 Member No.: 8,968 |
Too long, didn't read. Your argument hedges on "You'd have to make contrived scenarios to get this done" and being a raging condescending asshole.
To retort your argument in three words or less: No I don't. Runner Uncouth needs APDS ammo. Bad. Team doesn't have a Face. It has a Mage with Magic Etiquette, and a Rigger with Corporate Etiquette or Negotiations (Gotta get the most nuyen for your run, after all), and possibly a Decker with Matrix etiquette. Who's he going to talk to? He doesn't have street etiquette. So how the hell is he supposed to get a gun? In my game: He doesn't. In your game I presume that you let him get away with murder of a shopkeeper and a theft of firearms from a licensed weapons dealer that LoneStar doesn't investigate because you can't GM worth crap. Sure, yes, you can have your other runners do it for him, but they're not likely to get results because they specialized in what was their specialty, not HIS. Would you like to try and elevate the discourse again, since you started with your brusque garbage about getting "back to a regular program" or would you like to continue behaving like a cock? Either way, I think my tolerance for your "I know I'm right but I'm posting a thread about this anyways..." attitude is at its limit. |
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