 The Hot-Sim Disadvantage, How much is too much? |
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 Jul 29 2006, 07:30 PM
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#1
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Mr. Johnson  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314  |
Often, when I ask someone knowledgeable in the game what the disadvantage of hot-sim VR is, they answer that the user takes physical damage from dumpshock (the punchline to that is left as an exercise to the reader) and from black IC. However, they often forget the other issue with VR and any ungoverned direct neural sensory interface like BTLs: addiction.
So hot-sim VR is addictive. If used too much, it can lead to addiction, withdrawl symptoms in dead zones, psychological problems, Essence loss, and ultimately death. I'm wondering what people's opinions are on the severity of the addictive properties of hot-sim, specifically how much is too much, and how severe is the addiction? First, how much is too much? The rules suggest tests "after repeated/habitual use, a particularly brutal bender, or exposure to strong concentrations of the drug in a short period of time." (Boyle et al. 247) But what is repeated use? How much is too much? One hour? Several hours? A single combat with black IC? Next, what should the Addiction Test threshold be? Unfortunately, the book has not one, not two, but three different entries are listed for BTL threshholds. So I had some ideas, and offer them up to be ripped to shreds by the DS community. They are not necessarily meant to be used together.
Of course, there's the question of addiction in technomancers. These guys are using hot-sim all the time, aren't they? I don't think it's a problem, though, since "the neural pathways and brain chemistry of technomancers are altered to such an extent that they can reach out and tap in." (Boyle et al. 232) Their brains are already used to it, and so they don't suffer the same effects. |
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Jul 29 2006, 08:02 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 21-May 06 Member No.: 8,583 |
The way I run it, Otaku/Technomancers are essentially addicted to the Matrix, and they experience withdrawal symptoms every time they enter a blackout zone.
For Hot Sim addiction, I roll every every time a charecter makes more than his willpower in uses per day (and/or doesn't layoff the next day) with the threshold based on the color of the particular node. |
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Jul 29 2006, 08:59 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 565 Joined: 7-January 04 Member No.: 5,965 |
that looks like too much to me.
Hot sim, as-is, is an illegal modification which exposes you to lethal damage via the matrix. it can get you arrested and killed. While some hot-sim (BTL) has serious problems, this is a seperate issue. It is unfair to the players to treat all hot-sim as BTL, especialy as hackers/technomancers are such a core archtype of the genere. What you would actualy get, is fewer playing (if any) wanting to play that archtype, creating a more imbalanced team. If anyone does play a hacker with your rules, you can bet they will run AR with wired reflexes... or possibly be an adept with trodes. |
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Jul 29 2006, 11:26 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Hot-sim is a power trip beyond anything a hacker can achieve elsewhere. Addiction should be a problem for heavy users. Whether addiction test intervals should be based on Logic is iffy though. What is the reasoning there, Aaron? And I do think that all Hot-sim matches the description:
The extra stimuli that has no paralell in RL is what gives you that +2. You experience the data first hand. "You literally feel the code of a program running under your fingers, as your persona translates a wider degree of data that simply could not be percieved through the basic senses alone." Making Hot-sim so addictive would have an interesting affect on the feel that goes along with hacking in game. It would be a desperate, dangerous situation. i like it. |
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Jul 30 2006, 12:19 AM
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#5
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
when did SR4 nodes get colors? |
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Jul 30 2006, 03:03 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 21-May 06 Member No.: 8,583 |
In the Matrix section, there is mention made of green, blue, red, yellow, violet, and ultra-violet nodes.
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Jul 30 2006, 05:48 AM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 71 Joined: 29-July 06 From: Orlando, FL Member No.: 8,981 |
In 3E there were colors, but in 4E there aren't anymore.
My thoughts on the rules simply go like this. If the character spends hours upon hours using a HOT assist, especially when he is getting mail feeds and such, then this is excessive. If he uses HOT assist for a run, when things get hot, or he needs to get things done promptly. Where he is NOT spending alot of time connected via HOT assit then I don't consider it excessive. If your player isn't going to EVER use HOT assist because your rules are too restrive (e.g. he has to roll for addiction everytime he uses it.) When are you going to throw black ice at him? |
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Jul 30 2006, 06:39 AM
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#8
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
My reasoning went something like this:
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Jul 30 2006, 06:41 AM
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#9
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
At the risk of saying you're wrong, you're wrong. A search on the term "ultra-violet" turns up nothing. A search on the term "ultraviolet" returns one result that has anything to do with the Matrix: a mention of hyper-realistic nodes. A search on the term "green" returns nothing about the Matrix except a suggestion for what an Armor spell may look like. |
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Jul 30 2006, 06:43 AM
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#10
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I like the idea that some data comes across as emotional content. Like a feeling of infatuation means that there's a hidden node nearby. That would really frag up a strung-out hacker with a crush on somebody in meatspace. |
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Jul 30 2006, 09:36 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Emotional simsense is just cool all around.
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Jul 30 2006, 10:30 AM
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#12
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Remember BTLs are designed to be addictive (the dealers want repeat business) hot sim hacking is designed to have the least effect possible without compromising performance (that is they make it as good as possible and may add safeties where it wont hurt performance, cold sim being ad safety’s everywhere there is risk).
That said hot sim could easily be physiologically addictive. The brain will learn not cope with and expect the higher signal strength. I don’t think hackers use the emotional simsense track much. To hard to interpret accurately and buy not turning it off you leave yourself open to a paralyzing fear attack just buy sending the emotion. Edward |
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Jul 30 2006, 02:53 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Well, I'd say that if the hacker is doing almost 100% of his hacking in hot-sim, it's too much. Then I might invoke the addiction rules. If he seems to be making any kind of effort to downgrade to cold or just AR when the situation is less tense, I wouldn't annoy him with that. I read it as just a "don't abuse it" clause and unless I'm seeing abuse, I wouldn't really try to quantify my Hacker's PC use of hot-sim. |
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Jul 30 2006, 04:19 PM
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#14
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
At the risk of being contrary here, no it isn't. Cold sim is designed to have the least effect possible without compromising performance. The definition of hot sim is that the safeties are gone. I have a hard time believing that hot sim is "designed to have the least possible effect" (Edward) when "even random line noise could potentially be translated into lethal amounts of feedback." (Boyle et al. 229) Why would hot sim protect against regular input when it doesn't even protect against random line noise?
Now this, on the other hand, is a fair argument, but not for the reasons given. I believe that a hot sim user would happily allow emotional content if it gave her an edge; that's the whole point of hot sim: getting an edge. By using hot sim, the hacker is leaving herself open. A hacker that wants that protection uses cold sim. No, the argument is fair because your hymnal does not specifically mention emotional content in hot-sim VR. One part of the description of hot sim says "your persona translates a wider degree of data that simply could not be perceived through the basic senses alone." (Boyle et al. 229) If information is coming in on more levels than the five basic senses, then how is the information being relayed? I interpreted this to mean that hot-sim VR includes computer-generated emotional content and induced "gut feelings" that give the hacker an extra edge. For example: why does the hot-sim hacker get two more dice than the cold-sim hacker when Analyzing an icon? My answer would be that in the hot-sim hacker's perception, the icon "just feels like" an agent (or what have you). Additionally, we know that simsense can generate emotion (with Moodchips and Tripchips), and as such would be fair game for hot sim. |
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Jul 30 2006, 04:21 PM
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#15
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
I'd like to pose two questions to you, Charon (and, on a tangent, I'm amused that our names rhyme). Question the First: What type of BTL chip do you feel hot-sim VR is most like? Question the Second: How much BTL use would a character require for you to invoke an Addiction Test? |
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Jul 30 2006, 04:46 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
1 - They aren't too clear on that, aren't they? I'd say basic hot-sim VR is like Dream chip (with a threshold of one for addiction test). But it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that the VR world is more "intense" in some area which could mean the hot-sim experience in one of those mythical UV node would be more like that of a Tripchip (threshold of 3). 2 - A lot. I would eventually get to it, but there is just no mechanical advantage derived from abusing Dreamchips. A PC who routinely uses kamikaze is getting a clear mechanical advantage so I'd kick up the addiction test early in order to get his drug use under control (but not make it prohibitive to sometime pop one). But dreamchips? The player is declaring his PC use them most likely for pure roleplaying purpose and he doesn't get any benefits but he does have to pay money. So I'd be very tolerant. By the time addiction test would kick in, it would be obvious the PC wants to play an addict anyway. I'd be swifter with the test if the PC is using Tripchips on a regular basis. Not because these are more useful than Dreamchips, just because that would be a clear signal that player wants his PC to have a self destructive side. I'd chat with the player before hand, though. He'd be about to get a lot of grief for no benefits so I'd give him a chance to state his POV. If it's done for good reasons (i.e. he says he's trying to forget the recent in-campaign death of a loved one) I'd probably throw in some karma bonus as long as the addiction contribute positively to the stories. Similarly, I wouldn't be too harsh on alcohol and weed. Well, there would be serious penalty for being drunk during a gun fight, but I wouldn't be kicking a PC over the head with an addiction test after every declared drinking binge. |
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Jul 31 2006, 01:03 AM
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#17
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
What if the Dreamchip gave a mechanical advantage, like say a +2 on all Matrix actions and an extra IP? |
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Jul 31 2006, 01:39 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
I've always considered addiction to hot sim VR to be comparable to addiction to Power of any other sort (magic, political, physical,etc). All that extra data, the heightened senses, the quickness imbued by the hot sim link is simply addictive. It fills your character with an almost Godlike feeling. What God wants to be a peon again?
Going to cold sim, and especially AR, after hot sim is like wearing protection during love making. Same act, but very dissatisfying in comparison. |
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Jul 31 2006, 01:49 AM
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#19
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
heh, sounds like your talking cyberpsycosis there ethinos ;)
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Jul 31 2006, 01:56 AM
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#20
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
Why not? Look at how many people are already addicted to Everquest, Myspace, etc? Spending 40+ hours a week on it. People have lost jobs and spouses for that. One person died in Korea for spending 54 hours STRAIGHT online at an internet cafe playing a MMORPG!
And these people aren't even linked physically to the internet, like matrix hot VR users are. These people have a keyboard and monitor between them and their internet feed. What happens when you go straight to the brain with the feed? Computers can cause all sorts of psychological reliances and antisocial behavior. And as tech gets better, so will the psychological problems. |
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Jul 31 2006, 02:16 AM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
I'm not sure how that would work but if it did I would treat it roughly on equal footing as another PC who is on cram. What is this "footing" I can't say for certain until I get a chance to start my new SR4 campaign and have a drug/chip user on my hands. Perhaps once every 3 use with a dice pool penalty if the uses have been in rapid succession. |
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Jul 31 2006, 02:18 AM
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#22
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
im not so sure thats cyberpsycosis, but its very related to it.
it allso reminds me of that christmas eve discussion that was printed in VR2, where one party talks about the reality of the matrix, and the ability to crash a powerplant and thereby kill people that need said power to survive. and yes, i see more and more people going wow these days. even people i never expected to be interested. but in any case, i agree that its a power-trip kinda thing... |
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Jul 31 2006, 03:32 AM
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#23
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
You do understand that the "Dreamchip" that I was describing is the mechanical equivalent of hot sim, ne? |
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Jul 31 2006, 03:41 AM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Oh, huh, yeah. :embarassed: Tired. Hot Sim I wouldn't be as hard on as Cram. It's part of cyberpunk, you can't make it prohibitive. It's normal for Hacker to be on hot-sim on a regular basis. As I said earlier, as long as the PC looks like he's making any kind of effort to balance between cold and hot-sim and AR according to the situation I would never annoy him with addiction test. I don't want the player affraid to use hot-sim when the tension in the story rise (Well, not affraid of addiction, anyway. Black IC is another story). If hot-sim seems to be the only mode he can hack in, then I would do addiction test. Normally the first test ought to be a wake-up call and I'd expect to see some more diversity in his choice of hacking "mode". |
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Jul 31 2006, 01:18 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 21-May 06 Member No.: 8,583 |
Well, in my game, Hot Sim VR is used mostly for emergencies, or at least for the REALLY tough nodes. You know, the ones at corporate arcologies where you have to physically plug the linker (hacker is simply insuficiently flavorful) in. My players don't seem to mind this rule.
But then, outside of the Z-Zones, my players tend not to flash chrome, cold steel, or shooting irons around. And as for Black IC, If I ever decide to setup a game here (or Shadowland if I can ever manage to get my Java to behave), and you join it, you'll get to find out! :evil: |
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