 Thermographic Questions |
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 Jul 31 2006, 04:32 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,458  |
Ok, I have two question.
I have a guy in my group that swears and insists that thermographic vision can see through walls and pick up the heat given off by something in a room well beyond the interior wall. Put simply he claims that if he is using thermo while walking through a hallway, and he looks at a wall he can see through it and pick up the heat from a troll that is 10ft or more into the room. Is there anything in the rules that says that is possible? Are there any thermo imagers in the real world that can do that? I've heard that trolls and dwarves see in normal vision and thermo vision at the same time. I've heard that's the way it's done in some novels as well as it is discussed in the 2nd Ed. book Cybertechnology. The reference that says that states it is in the discussions in the book IIRC. Not sure what IIRC means. Does anyone know what area or page says that? Or is there anywhere else in any rulebooks that it states that and what page please? |
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Jul 31 2006, 05:02 AM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
no to both questions. the guy is either insane, or he's confusing thermo vision with mm-wave radar. different materials are transparent to light from different parts of the spectrum. thermo vision, in SR, basically allows your eyes to see into the near infrared. very few building materials are transparent in the near infrared--including glass; you can't see through windows if you're only using thermo vision. many building materials, however, are transparent to millimeter wave light--but there are no rules for mm-wave vision.
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Jul 31 2006, 05:13 AM
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#3
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
... yet.
As for the meta vision, that |
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Jul 31 2006, 07:14 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
If I Recall/Remember Correctly |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:18 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
The see-through-walls idea is often based on one particular scene in the movie Robocop. I don't think that it's ever actually referred to as thermographic, but the hero looks through a wall and sees that colorful red-people-on-blue-background effect that we laypeople imagine as thermo imaging.
By the way, I've heard about fire-fighters using some kind of portable imaging device to locate people in burning buildings. Anyone know how that works? |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:36 AM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
You can only see hot immovable objects through a wall.
But it is possible to see humans through curtains and such if the stay there for some minutes, but not if they are fast mooving. |
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Jul 31 2006, 10:10 AM
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#7
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Firefighters use an infrared thermographic camera that can differentiate between objects of different temperatures so that they can see people who need to be rescued or hot spots that need to be contained while not being blinded by the smoke.
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Jul 31 2006, 10:37 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
To penetrate smoke, not walls. Got it.
If I can be picky for a moment, Serbitar, it sounds like what you're describing is that one would see the heat transferred from a hot object onto a chunk of wall. In that case, you'd have to take into consideration the heat conductivity, etc. of the barrier itself. |
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Jul 31 2006, 10:56 AM
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#9
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Indeed, you would.
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Jul 31 2006, 12:02 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Yes, thats exactly how it works. |
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Jul 31 2006, 12:09 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
In the US, most interior walls are sheets of sheet-rock seperated by air. This means that any heat something leaning against one side of the wall transferred to the wall would be diffused by the air spacing in the wall as well.
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Jul 31 2006, 06:46 PM
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#12
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
Amusingly, they acheived the "thermographic" look by not actually using any sort of heat-camera, but by dressing all the actors in spandex that had been painted in the vivid colors, and then fuzzing it a bit with camera effects. Apparantly at the time renting an actual thermographic camera was too expensive, especially for one brief scene in the movie.
Gypsum wallboard is in and of itself a pretty good heat insulator as well. -karma |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:31 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
It is theoretically possibly to see someone using thermografic vision through a wall, if the circumstances are right. Most are mentioned already, the target didn't move around much, the walls are good heat conductors (stone is, wood isn't, for example). The temperature of the building and your surroundings is a factor, etc.
Basically it's just easier to disallow this at all :). |
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Jul 31 2006, 11:30 PM
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#14
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Target Group: Members Posts: 70 Joined: 7-December 05 Member No.: 8,056 |
Actually the scene I think of is from the Seals movie where the sniper sees the guys behind a brick wall and shoots them through the wall with his Barret sniper rifle.
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Aug 1 2006, 01:16 AM
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#15
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
"Ooooh, Navy SEALs!"
Yeah... No. |
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Aug 1 2006, 01:58 AM
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#16
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
heh, at least it's not U.S. SEALs.
regardless. i'm not going to say that there isn't a scope that does what Paxton's scope does in that movie, but if there is, it's not an infrared (ie, thermographic) scope. |
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Aug 1 2006, 02:28 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
I want the railgun and scope in Eraser.
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Aug 1 2006, 08:12 AM
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#18
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
God sees your crimes. |
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Aug 1 2006, 08:27 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
But he/she/it doesn't tell anyone.
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Aug 1 2006, 09:12 AM
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#20
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
he tells me. that's how i know who to kill.
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Aug 1 2006, 12:19 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860 |
As noted, it's to see through smoke. The traditional firefighter method of finding people in a burning house is to get down on hands and knees and sweep with your hands because the smoke will fill the room to the floor. http://qconline.com/progress2003/prog_dspl...3;id!143552 http://www.bullard.com/thermalimager/Train..._overview.shtml As for seeing through walls, that would depend on heat from a heat source (like a body) warming the nearside of the wall. As you can see in the link above, IR is useful for finding hotspots hiding in walls - but they *have* warmed the nearside of the wall. The average interior wall - drywall/air gap/drywall - is a pretty good insulator, and is opaque to IR light. A body would have to warm the far side of the wall so it glowed in IR, then radiate that IR across the air space, which in turn would need to warm the next wall before the thermographic camera could see it. So, I wouldn't bet on it. Interestingly, glass also tends to be opaque to IR, though mirrors still work. This website has many, many thermographic pictures...at the bottom. The top has a lot of cameras. A lot of the photos seem to be repeats, but it should give you a nice idea of how thermographic imaging works. http://www.ir55.com/infrared_IR_camera.html |
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Aug 1 2006, 01:02 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
god says you can live, Cray.
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Aug 1 2006, 01:20 PM
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#23
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
For now.
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Aug 1 2006, 04:31 PM
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#24
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I like the tricks sp... Milholland wrote about in SOTA63 (Keeping the Rabble Out) about using IR reflective paint to ambush people coming around corners who don't have thermographic vision.
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Aug 1 2006, 07:45 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 22-May 06 From: Bellevue, WA Member No.: 8,590 |
Do you guys really think they all had to strip down naked to do this test? Homoerotic much? |
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