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> A Few SR4 Rules Clarifications...
DragonMech
post Jul 31 2006, 06:31 AM
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Hi All,

I'm creating a back-up character for a game I'm playing in, and I need a few things clarified.

Recoil: Does it add together from shot-to-shot or burst-to-burst? For example, if I fire two short bursts in the same round, the first burst is at -2 dice and the second is at -3 or -5 dice total? I can see possible reasoning for both arguments, but I can't find where the rules explain about this (if they do).

Recoil Compensation: If I have the cyberarm gyromount implanted into both arms, do I get a benefit of 6 points of recoil compensation? Just to clarify, the different types of recoil compensation (gas-vent, shock-pads, gyro) do all stack together?

Two Weapon Shooting: I understand that if you want to fire two weapons at the same time that you split your dice pool, etc, but what if I wanted to fire the two weapons one after the other? Or if I had two different weapons (say a pistol and an SMG)? Or how about the same weapon with different ammo in each (say Gel rnds in one and APDS in the other)?

I'm asking this because it's primarily a style thing - you know, two weapons blazing, and all that jazz... :evil: but I don't want to run afoul of the rules saying that in order to do I'll never be able to hit the broad side of a barn (or a fat troll...)

In this case, if I have the cyberarm gyromount installed in each arm, do I get the benefit of the recoil compensation on both shots (thereby effectively gaining 6 points of compensation)?

If firing two weapons simultaneously, I know I cannot get the bonus for either a laser sight or a smartgun link to either shot, but if I fired the two weapons separately (only two shots/bursts in a single IP, much the same as firing the same weapon twice) do I get the bonus from the laser sight/smartgun link?

Of course, there is a possible rules breaker here in that there is the possibility to fire two long bursts or even two full bursts in the same action, one from each weapon, though I personally would probably allow something like this, I would also probably limit it to supressive or ven wild fire only.

I see it as being mechanically very similar to simply moving the weapon and shooting at the same or another target (with attendant penalties for the second target), but if I'm wrong, please let me know, and please explain why... :( :evil:
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WhiskeyMac
post Jul 31 2006, 06:49 AM
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QUOTE
Recoil Compensation: If I have the cyberarm gyromount implanted into both arms, do I get a benefit of 6 points of recoil compensation? Just to clarify, the different types of recoil compensation (gas-vent, shock-pads, gyro) do all stack together?


Yes, you get 3 points of recoil comp per arm. And yes, recoil comp usually stacks unless specifically stated it doesn't. Therefore, you can get around 7 points of recoil with cyberarm gyromount, rating 3 recoil compensation and a shock pad per arm.

QUOTE
Two Weapon Shooting: I understand that if you want to fire two weapons at the same time that you split your dice pool, etc, but what if I wanted to fire the two weapons one after the other? Or if I had two different weapons (say a pistol and an SMG)? Or how about the same weapon with different ammo in each (say Gel rnds in one and APDS in the other)?


If you fire the weapons 1 after another, the only thing that will hamper your roll is if you aren't ambidextrous, which gives you the off-hand weapon use modifier. Other than that, your golden. Single/Single, Single/Burst, Single/Single with different ammo would work just fine.

QUOTE
In this case, if I have the cyberarm gyromount installed in each arm, do I get the benefit of the recoil compensation on both shots (thereby effectively gaining 6 points of compensation)?

If firing two weapons simultaneously, I know I cannot get the bonus for either a laser sight or a smartgun link to either shot, but if I fired the two weapons separately (only two shots/bursts in a single IP, much the same as firing the same weapon twice) do I get the bonus from the laser sight/smartgun link?


Yes to both. However, with the gyromount you only get the recoil comp for the hand that you have it installed in. It just stops the recoil going over to the second handgun modifier.

I would say no on the 2 full-auto bursts because that's just a little to munchie. However, if you had enough recoil comp per arm it technically could be done. The only real thing stopping you is the size of the weapon after that. LMGs are bulky :D

Edit: Whoops, should probably check my math before commenting on something :D
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Abbandon
post Jul 31 2006, 07:13 AM
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QUOTE
Recoil: Does it add together from shot-to-shot or burst-to-burst? For example, if I fire two short bursts in the same round, the first burst is at -2 dice and the second is at -3 or -5 dice total? I can see possible reasoning for both arguments, but I can't find where the rules explain about this (if they do).


Hmm i guess recoil is cumulative. in the paragraph headed with Burst Fire mode in sr4 pg143 (corrected 3rd printing) it states:

The first burst fired in an action phase has -2 recoil. a second burst inflicts an additional -3 recoil mod. As in add it to.

QUOTE
Recoil Compensation: If I have the cyberarm gyromount implanted into both arms, do I get a benefit of 6 points of recoil compensation? Just to clarify, the different types of recoil compensation (gas-vent, shock-pads, gyro) do all stack together?


Hmmm. gyro harness = recoil comp 6. A cybergyro = recoil comp 3. It says you cant mix cyber and harness gyro stabilizers..... so i guess i would let people use two cyber gyro mods.

As for mixing other forms of recoil comp yes they stack except for bi/tri pods that have to actually be getting used.

QUOTE
Two Weapon Shooting: I understand that if you want to fire two weapons at the same time that you split your dice pool, etc, but what if I wanted to fire the two weapons one after the other? Or if I had two different weapons (say a pistol and an SMG)? Or how about the same weapon with different ammo in each (say Gel rnds in one and APDS in the other)?


You can fire two (pistol or smg type) weapons at once for one simple action. Doing so cancels out any laser or smartgun mods and you split the dice pools before modifiers.

If you use a pistol in one hand and an smg in another you use the split pool of whichever has the lower skill rating.

If you fire one weapon with a simple action and another in your next simple actions thats not dual firing.

If your talking about having two pistols each with a specific type of ammo and firing them both see above. the type of ammo used is irrelevant. If your talking about one gun and changing the ammo thats different.

You can fire one gun twice during an IP or 2 guns twice.

Its all at the bottom of sr4 pg141-142.

QUOTE
In this case, if I have the cyberarm gyromount installed in each arm, do I get the benefit of the recoil compensation on both shots (thereby effectively gaining 6 points of compensation)?


I have an SMG in each hand and a cybergyro in each wrist. Each gun only has 3 points of recoil comp from your wrists. Lets pretend there is no other forms of recoil comp on those SMG's. For your first simple action of an IP you fire both smg's in burst fire mode using wide bursts at a single target. First you split the automatics skill. Then you apply mods. Thats -2 to each pool for a burst fire. Which easily gets nuetralized by your wrist gyro's.

For your second simple action you again fire both smg's at the little girl who stole your icecream cone in wide burst. You split the pool. Then apply mod's. As this is your second burst this IP you suffer an additional -3 to each hand or -5 to each hand. That gives you a final mod of -2 to each hand. Any uncompensated recoil from one hand also gets applied to the other hand. So add another -2 to each hand and now your at -4 to each hand. If you manage to hit the little girl gets blown away in a hail of bullets.

QUOTE
If firing two weapons simultaneously, I know I cannot get the bonus for either a laser sight or a smartgun link to either shot, but if I fired the two weapons separately (only two shots/bursts in a single IP, much the same as firing the same weapon twice) do I get the bonus from the laser sight/smartgun link?


yes. your no longer dual firing if you take a simple action for each hand.

QUOTE
Of course, there is a possible rules breaker here in that there is the possibility to fire two long bursts or even two full bursts in the same action, one from each weapon, though I personally would probably allow something like this, I would also probably limit it to supressive or ven wild fire only.


Full burst take a complex action. I equate this to a guy using both hands to manipulate the gun to spray a very large area with bullets. Even if you are doing narrow then your using both hands to hold the gun on target.

If you can hit shit with long bursts while dual firing more power to you. Worst case scenario for the little girl.......

Grarr the local gang leader reaches boths hands into his trench coat and pulls out two AK-97 Carbines that are black as night. Grarr has gas vent 3's and shockpads on each gun and cybergyro's in each wrist. Thats 7pts of recoil for each gun if he holds the guns up to his shoulders. If he has them slung under each arm i wouldnt give him the shockpads. (grarr has agility 6 and automatics 6)

He is really pissed off so he decides for his first simple action of his first IP he will fire two long narrow bursts in burst fire mode at the little girl since she is just standing there mocking him. (easy target).

Thats agility 6 + auto 3 for each gun. Then we slap on our burst mods of -2 for each gun which easily gets nuetralized by our 7 pts of recoil for each gun. So Grarr gets 9 dice for each gun. Lets not visualize the bullets hitting the little girl lets just skip to the end where she is laying in a pool of her own blood.

Grarr is only half satisfied. That ice cream cone costs 5:nuyen:. For his second simple action of his first IP he decides to use each gun to fire on full auto and pump her full of two long bursts. He uses his free action and smartlinks to switch the guns to full auto mode. As he is lining up his guns electrical signals travels from the dajack transmit the command to his commlink and then on to his guns right as he pulls the trigger on each gun in his hands.

Agility +6 auto 3 for each gun again. Now we slap on mods. Thats -6 dice to each hand since its the second burst of this IP which ...is nuetralized quite easily by our recoil comp systems.

What was a little girl laying in a pool of her own blood is now more like a chunky soup of blood with bits and pieces of a little girls outfit mixed in with whatever it is...

Maybe dual firing smg weapons should cause 1.5x recoil.

If your in burst mode and you fire two guns with your first simple action thats -3 to each gun (-2x1.5). The second simple action would be -8 (-5x1.5). If you fired two long bursts on full auto it would be -8 (-5x1.5) for the first simple action and -9 (-6x1.5) for the second.

That seems reasonable. If Grarr used those rules for his second shot where he pumped the little girl with two long shots on full auto he would have had -4 (9-7= 2 x2 for each gun = 4) reducing his pool from 9 for each gun to 5 and thats before all other modifiers.
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hobgoblin
post Jul 31 2006, 01:06 PM
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incompensated recoil stacks by the looks of it, and thats a change from the better compared to SR3. in SR3 it was a case of it being compensated and then adding to the next burst.

so in SR4: if i fire of a burst and the -2 becomes compensated for, the next burst only have a -3. but if those -2 of the first burst didnt get compensated, im looking at a -5 on the next burst...
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Abbandon
post Jul 31 2006, 03:09 PM
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Hmmm im torn betweem -2/-3 and -2/-5. A long burst on full auto is essentially 2 bursts on semi-auto and it starts at -5.

I guess 2/3 makes more sense as you are holding the trigger down for less time over two actions making less recoil. I think it is worded crappily in the book. Thats the only place it says additionally.
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hobgoblin
post Jul 31 2006, 04:49 PM
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hmm, there was a old debate about this, including a reply from the man himself. maybe someone should do a search?
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Shrike30
post Jul 31 2006, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (Abbandon)
Thats agility 6 + auto 3 for each gun.


You divide the POOL, not just the skill rating. Your pool would normally be 12 with Agil 6/Auto 6. Since your scenario depicts no other negative modifiers, that pool is halved for each gun, giving you two rolls of 6 dice (not 9).

If you have a negative modifier (let's say the light's a little off, giving him a -2), then he'd get two rolls of 4 dice (12/2 = 6, 6-2 = 4).

The rules for firing two weapons at once are extremely harsh. There's a reason for this... the only time I really think of this as a viable method of shooting is when you're basically at point blank (what I usually describe as "standing on the target's table in the restaurant" range). If you're so close it's hard to miss, and your target isn't really making himself hard to hit (so, for example, you've just jumped up onto his table and he's in shock in his chair at this dude standing in his soup) then the system rewards you... you still throw more dice than him, most likely, and so you're going to get twice as many shots in with those guns. If you're firing two guns at the door gunner of a helicopter whipping past you down the street at 90 miles an hour in a rainstorm with the streetlamps out, you really should just be using one, and taking advantage of the sights.
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Abbandon
post Aug 1 2006, 02:20 AM
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Hmm i gotta write the numbers out as i cant see them in my head very well.....Grarr agility 6 auto's 6. 2 ak-97 carbines with 7 pts of recoil comp from gear and cybergyro's.

Current rules for dual firing:
-1st semi auto burst -2, 6+6/2 = 6 + (7-2=0) = 6 dice for each hand before any other mods.
-2nd semi auto burst -3, 6+6/2 = 6 + (7-3=0) = 6 dice for each hand before any other mods.
-1st full auto long burst -5, 6+6/2 = 6 + (7-5=0) = 6 dice for each hand before any other mods.
-2nd Full auto long burst -6, 6+6/2 = 6 + (7-6=0) = 6 dice for each hand before any other mods.

Grarr with no cybergyro's and no gyro harness would be at:
-1st semi auto burst -2, 6+6/2 = 6 + (4-2=0) = 6 dice for each hand before any other mods.
-2nd semi auto burst -3, 6+6/2 = 6 + (4-3=0) = 6 dice for each hand before any other mods.
-1st full auto long burst -5, 6+6/2 = 6 + (4-5=-1x2) = 4 dice for each hand before any other mods.
-2nd Full auto long burst -6, 6+6/2 = 6 + (4-6=-2x2) = 2 dice for each hand before any other mods.

I guess you dont need 1x5 times recoil. Certainly a guy who lops off both of his arms deserves not to suffer recoil from dual firing smg's.
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Samaels Ghost
post Aug 1 2006, 02:27 AM
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That guy in the chair whose soup you just ruined doesn't get that harsh of a negative, does he? If he's surprised, then yeah. Otherwise....
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