 Good Merges and Magicians., Magic wielding insect spirits |
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 Jul 31 2006, 07:04 PM
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#1
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Shadow Cartographer  Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636  |
I want a good merge between an insect spirit (probably wasp) and a mage and I want the mage to preserve his magical power. I've gone through Magic in the Shadows and it dosen't explicitly rule this out as far as I can see. It says that skills and knowledge is preserved. It doesn't say that anything else is lost, as far as I can see. So I think I'll GM fiat this, but I want to know if there are any cannon examples of this or similar to back me up. Also, if there are any strong arguments against it I'd be interested to hear them. I know that the merge is more or less irreversible, but it is still possession and the mage isn't dead, as such. There's still part of him in there, I think. Thoughts, opinions, random off-topic posts about SR4 vs. SR3? :D |
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Jul 31 2006, 07:25 PM
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#2
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
wow, thats a hard one. and outside of the SR4 vs SR3 post at the bottom i would say this one belongs over on the other section...
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Jul 31 2006, 07:28 PM
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#3
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
It says that memories are preserved and the good merges can mimic the host. The only spirits that, according to the rules, retain skills and Edges/Flaws are Master Shedim.
I've thought about this myself. Quite a bit. |
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Jul 31 2006, 07:29 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876 |
I doubt that this answers any of your questions, but the way our GM looked at it was, the host's spirit/soul/whatever was destroyed/consumed in the process of investiture. Sure, the bug had access to the host body's memories, and therefore old skills, but at a reduced ability or recollection (at least until they acclimated to their new home). I guess basically the host was the spirit's doorway and vessel into the "real" world, and the bug was merely pretending to be the host, or pretending that part of the host's spirit/soul/whatever still existed in there somewhere.
Like I said, that was his take, and I guess magical abilities might fall under the idea that a host's skills in life might be retained, but I dunno. If I were a GM, I'd say not, but that's without any rules or guidelines here at hand. Good luck with your game, and if you do end up with a good-merge/bug masquerading as a mage, let my team in on his address :) We'll make it worth your while. |
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Jul 31 2006, 07:31 PM
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#5
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Since SR4 info on bug spirits isn't out for a few weeks yet I agree that you'll be drawing on a much larger base in general SR forum. Nothing useful to add beyond that, since your impression is my impression but like you I can't recall any specific canon examples of it.
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Jul 31 2006, 07:37 PM
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#6
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Oh, as for examples. The only Good Merges I can think of offhand are General Yeats and Dirk Montgomery's sister in House of the Sun. Neither of them were mages though, but the Wasp spirit (weird, they all seem to be wasps) possessing his sister had her memories, but when pressed he could tell it wasn't her. As for skills... *shrugs* She didn't seem to have any appreciable skills to begin with AFAIK.
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Jul 31 2006, 07:47 PM
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#7
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Not again, please not again! :eek: |
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Jul 31 2006, 07:51 PM
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#8
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Anyway, I'd wish you godspeed, but if I didn't turn my social adept into a Force 8 free Mantis spirit yet, I doubt there's much chance for you.
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Jul 31 2006, 07:56 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876 |
Neat topic!
Wasn't Anne Penchyk of the Empowerment Coalition (?) also a good merge? Another non-mage, if so. Perhaps the bugs avoid mages unless absolutely necessary... As an aside, in our longest-running SR campaign, we found out toward the end that one of the team members (an actual PC) had been a good-merge mantid for several game years. I guess she had somehow been masked and the team shaman (the only one who could have assensed her nature) who'd been shacked up with her for a good while either never caught on or didn't care. |
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Jul 31 2006, 08:13 PM
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#10
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
That's scaring. How did the other team members react? Most chars of mine would kill the good-merger, especially after the whole UB/ Chicago-mess.
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Jul 31 2006, 08:15 PM
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#11
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
The way that I see it is that with a True Form, the host's spirit is destroyed. That's what you get for not having much willpower to fend off the invasion with. I also think that this is the result that an insect spirit Queen / Mother actually wants as it's the true representation of a the insect form (along with being pretty powerful). But I see a closer match between the contest of wills to mean that an actual merge of some sort is taking place. The insect fails to completely obliterate the hosts original form which survives to some extent, even if only in physical body. A good merge I see as the host managing to preserve much of the original mind as well as the body. So they may be irrevocably possessed, but they have fought the spirit into a position of unification rather than being completely overwhelmed. In this case, I think it would be possible for for magic to be preserved.
Heh. He should watch himself. I mean we all get a little peckish after sex, but with a mantid, pizza might not be enough, if you get me. |
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Jul 31 2006, 08:30 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 12-July 06 From: Redmond,UCAS Member No.: 8,876 |
If I remember correctly, the mantid's body was never found after a Thor-Strike (arranged beforehand, I don't remember how) leveled the Penumbra in Seattle, where a meet with that mantid and her cohorts, The Desolation Angels, had been arranged...
As for the shaman, we was nearly killed by a majority of the team, but somehow talked his way out of it, convincing all involved that he'd had no idea what was going on. On the other hand, it turned out that yet another PC in the team (talk about poor security) had made a deal with the mantids on his own. He would have become either a new host, or possibly some kind of insect shaman/cheerleader if he hadn't been included on the Penumbra's invitation list.... His remains (a smudge blotted up with towels) WERE recovered by the Ares Firewatch Team sent in afterwards. |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:15 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Since there's no mention of the rules for insect spirits in the SR4 BBB, you could play it any way you wanted until Street Magic came out. I remember this was discussed a lot in SR3, and I don't think anyone had a definitive conclusion, but most people voted that the 'memories and skills' that good merges retained did not include their magical quality.
If you're looking for an argument the other way though, you could always cite Threats II, which allowed paranormal critters that were merged with bugs to retain their paranormal powers, provided the merge was good enough. ('Good' merges - those with a half-dozen or so net successes on the possession vs. will role got to retain all their pre-merged powers, while 'Less-Good' merges only retained some of the previous powers.) If you go by the philosophy that awakened metahumanity are equivalent to paranormal people, then you could treat their special qualities (Mage, Adept, Technomancer, etc.) as powers that they had a chance of retaining. In order for the magician in question to have any chance of becoming a good merge, though, the investing spirit would have to have a very low force (or be a female mantid, which are alway good merges). |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:21 PM
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#14
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Maybe a good balancing factor would be that the Magic rating of the good merge is capped at the force of the spirit. If it's a low force spirit, it'll have modest magical abilities, and if it's a high-force spirit it's unlikely to get a good merge.
It lets you get away with this, but prevents force 12 good merge grade 6 initiates running around. (or at least makes them very, very, VERY rare) |
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Jul 31 2006, 10:41 PM
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#15
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Not necessarily. Her stats were for an unaugmented ork, and to "summon" a spirit the way she does in dead Run, she didn't need to be a mage, per se. |
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Aug 1 2006, 02:28 AM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Of course, this gets really sick when you get the high-level initiate vampire to use his enhanced attributes on his willpower to get a ridiculous number of successes, so that all his powers and magic come through his transition to a good merge intact. Just think: a force 5 or 6 bug, that also has high-level magic, mist form, essence drain, regeneration... then let it go free when you kill the mother spirit... |
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Aug 1 2006, 08:19 AM
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#17
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
I thought all of the creatures in Threats 2 were non-sentient. IOW, creatures like ghouls and vampires would apply different rules (the ones in MitS).
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Aug 1 2006, 03:09 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
The paranormal creatures used as examples in Threats II were non-sapient, but there was nothing in the rules or fluff text indicating that it only worked on non-sentients. All the examples were four-legged mammals as well, but I wouldn't assume that this meant I couldn't invest a novoscorpion or an embracer. [fixed] |
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Aug 1 2006, 03:30 PM
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#19
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
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Aug 1 2006, 04:50 PM
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#20
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Well, I was just using it in the same way SR has, to appy to only a limited number of self-aware creatures like (meta)humans, Infected, Sasquatches, and maybe merrow and naga.
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Aug 1 2006, 04:54 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Page 290 of the SR4 BBB, Sapience power. Although perhaps SR3 used Sentience [incorrectly] in places?
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Aug 1 2006, 05:08 PM
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#22
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
SR1-3. Yeah.
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Aug 1 2006, 05:29 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
I thought I remembered that, I just didn't want to sift through all the books trying to find the reference. The Critters book doesn't have as a power like it is in SR4. Incidentally in SR4 Merrow and Naga are listed as Sapient. Bizzarely Wendigos do not have the power listed. I'm pretty sure that is a typographic mistake/oversight rather than intentional.
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Aug 2 2006, 01:56 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
I don't really know if a good merge mage keeping his powers is canon, but it's easy to see why a good merge mage is unlikely. It's a willpower test and all decent mage have high willpower. Good merge tend to have low willpower.
From a story POV, it's also easy to see why no authors ever made one ; A bug influenced magician is usually an Insect Shaman. To add flesh form mage confuse the issue and weaken the concept. Neither are arguments against the existence of a good merge magician, just good reasons why it's not a very good plot device. It's the same problem as a flesh form Physads. Would these be uber cool? Nah, it's functionnally not very different from a real tough flesh form or a real tough physads. It serves no particular story purpose. A twisted path physads or a brother turned flesh form are much better plot device than a physad fleshform. Sorta the same thing with a good merge mage that isn't an insect shaman. It'd be much better to see a formerly upstanding hermetic mage corrupted to the ways of the Firefly totem, for example. Better for the story, anyway. |
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Aug 2 2006, 02:11 PM
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#25
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
You've got that backwards. Good Merges require hosts with Willpower 5+ |
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