 Free contacts? |
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 Jul 31 2006, 09:14 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087  |
We used to have 2 free contacts.
Now they must all be paid in full. Anyone noticed a drop in the number of contacts in SR4? Should something be done to encourage more contacts or are things fine? I was thinking maybe granting two free contacts worth 5 BP each for my first campaign (PC creation thursday, yay!). That could increase the incidence of bartender and gang member contacts, which is fun. Or it could lead to PC who are content with two weak contacts and invest everything in gear, skill and attributes. Whaddya think? |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:16 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Meh...I'd rather see more fleshed out guidelines for gaining new contacts and improving loyalty connections in-game.
Rare is the player whose character knows everyone they need to know at chargen. |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:18 PM
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#3
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
In SR3, Contacts were essential - everything about legwork was about them.
In SR4, contacts are nice to have - when doing legwork, they provide bonus dice. Legwork in SR4 is like the Matrix - decentralized and open to anyone knowing his way. |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:30 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 4-January 06 Member No.: 8,131 |
I don't know how contacts aren't essential. If you just ask around the 'shadows' or the street you are likely to draw attention; sometimes that's good most times not.
How contacts are used can be the difference in doing things the hard way or getting a lucky break. They allow the GM to inject help for the PC's or to spread disinformation. I do give out free contacts (2x Chr) at CharGen. After that I award karma and contacts based on character interactions. My faces collect contacts like a StreetSam collects guns, if used correctly they are as leathal as well. |
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Jul 31 2006, 09:34 PM
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#5
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
A houserule we tried once and basically liked was giving the characters 2 x Charisma (unmodified) Build Points for Contacts only. We also used a Contact rating cap of 4 (neither rating could exceed 4 for that particular game and you only had a choice of Street, Squatter, or Low for Lifestyle choices, so basically I have no idea how it would work in a regular game but it fit that scenario pretty well.
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Jul 31 2006, 09:40 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
No. Almost everybody I know still has at least 2 contacts (well, their chars do), but there are exceptions - one player spend over 50 BPs. Doing a little math, and not counting the 50 BP guy, my players spent a little under 9 BP for contacts on average. |
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Jul 31 2006, 10:57 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
I gave my players a L2 C4 fixer contact for free, but mostly just because I wanted them all to have the same fixer.
Strangely (not that I'm complaining), they all took at least 2 more contacts. Even the street sam and combat adept. |
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Jul 31 2006, 11:02 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Yes. I'm seeing a few less starting Contacts. Although no Contacts at all isn't particularly common, it now happens as does having a single contact. Also the quality of the contacts is down some in my estimation. I haven't yet seen anyone drop anything approaching what Butterblume described. As Rotbart pointed out the rules surrounding Contacts has changed a lot, making Contacts nolonger that critical in RAW. As for the rules themselves I like the new two stat contacts a lot more. However it still feels kind of wierd with the rolls that don't need any contact at all. Unfortunately our GM hasn't really embraced that aspect of it, and I haven't really pressed it. A big thing to get past is describing the effects of the Negotiation roll without having specific predefined names. It just feels wierd. This might be part of why you'll still see large Contact lists with some characters, where the Contactless procurement rules just aren't being used or allowed to be used. The biggest thing missing though is Contact progression, which could handle the Negotiation rolls too. Not only could the progression rules include raising Loyalty, it could start with a name that you get from a Negotiation roll and eventually progress him up to a stated Contact on your list. |
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Jul 31 2006, 11:04 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Yeah, I've done the free common contact (Usually a fixer) schtick in all of my past 4 campaign in SR3 too. This time I'll be using a DA but that's another story. ;)
Hmm, linking free BP for contact to charisma is nice. I think I like that more than a fixed amount. |
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Jul 31 2006, 11:42 PM
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#10
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
I don't think a character should get free contacts.
Your most basic contact will cost 2 BPs. (1 Connection, 1 Loyalty) If a player cannot find a way to keep at least 2 Build points around during character generation, you should make hell for them during gameplay. |
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Jul 31 2006, 11:52 PM
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#11
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
The rules are written such that using a Contact is optional. It shouldn't be hell to have an empty Contact list, unless you also are lacking in social skill or a teammate that has either a Contact or social skills. If you want to go back to the SR3 standard of requiring characters to obtain illegal things by starting out going through a named Contact then going of back to the SR3 standard of a couple free Contacts, or a rough equivalent, is more than fair. |
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Aug 1 2006, 12:19 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 22-May 06 From: Bellevue, WA Member No.: 8,590 |
All my adventures start with my crew at crappy ganger levels. I handicap them at 300 BP and don't give them any good starting equipment. I like to make them work their way out of the barrens.
I recommended that everyone have at least two contacts to help them get out of the hole they start in. They all took my advice, and it hasn't been near to enough. I had to make an NPC to join their gang with a few contacts just so they'd have someplace to fence their loot on their way up the reputation pole. I love the new contacts system, but if players don't take contacts in my game they're dead in the water. Rarely do I just hand out jobs, they have to have some contacts to ask first. |
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Aug 1 2006, 12:25 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
Of course they are optional. But you should remind them of that old phrase:
"Its not what you know, its WHO you know that's important." Or something. Basically, you shouldn't approve any character without that player's complete understanding that they are pretty much fresh off the boat. Besides the rest of the team, everyone else in their world is a complete and utter stranger. When the drek hits the fan, who will you turn to? |
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Aug 1 2006, 12:52 AM
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#14
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Aye, I have seen less Contacts, which is why I've decided to give every character 10 BPs for Contacts, with a few limitations...
(1) A player may not pool the 'freebies' with his/her normal BPs. (2) A player must buy at least two Contacts with the Pool. (3) The Contacts must be able to pass my internal Bullshit Detector... Also, I tend to give one or two free 'campaign' Contacts, of which my Players know nothing about except for the name... *evil grin* |
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Aug 1 2006, 03:14 AM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
I thought of this just now.
Buying a weapon is optional. (Or offensive spell for magicians.) Knowing how to use the weapon is optional. Wearing armor is optional. Now. How many characters typically DON'T opt for any of the above? Do you give guns or armor away for free? Do you give combat skills away for free? Maybe a better alternative is to earmark 10 BPs of the 400 starting points, as contact only points. Otherwise, folks are just getting 410+ BP characters. Also once you start giving away points, where do you stop? Your players might start asking for extra skills, more magic, a free vehicle, starter commlinks.... |
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Aug 1 2006, 03:49 AM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
a 2 point contact is also not horribly useful. a 1/1 contact is someone who
and who has
so in other words. 2 BPs let's you actually buy stuff from the local bum (not that he likely has anything you want), and ask him questions about stuff he knows, provided you pay him for it. a contact is often not worthwhile until you have put at least 3 points into it, IMO. |
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Aug 1 2006, 03:50 AM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Well put. But a major differrence is that while I don't care if my PCs don't buy armor or guns, I want them to have contacts. That's NPCs for the campaign. Beside, you suggest 400 BP with 10 BP earmarked for contact instead of 410 BP with 10 BP... earmarked for contacts (Or approximately). Not much difference, really. Especially since 400 is just a recommandation. But what I like of Ravor suggestion is that those +10 BP can't be split with normal BP and must be used for at least 2 contact. As a result at least one of these is likely to be a minor contact. Less powerful but good for flavor. And that PC will still likely pay from the 400 BP for the major Loyalty 3 connection 6 arms dealer he needs to get his hand on the hot stuff. Otherwise, he's very likely to pay only for the maximally useful contacts and have no "flavor" contact. That way not only the Faceman will have a few quirky contact worked in the story. |
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Aug 1 2006, 04:03 AM
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#18
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
Of course a 1/1 contact isn't very useful. I personally don't run characters without at least a good 15-20 points worth of characters (most of them at least 5-8 point contacts). I think the problem evolves from the players lack of interest in contacts. Both their usefulness and the inability to sacrifice a few combat points to have an NPC buddy/confidant. Which ultimately should be solved through roleplaying. If you have a group of 4 runners, with two total contacts between them, what happens when both contacts are compromised? (Either dead, disinterested, scared, betrayed, etc). What happens if neither dabble in a career field or circle of influence that the players need help with? Show the players the error in their ways. Giving extra points comes down to band-aiding the problem and coddling the players. Shadowrun is harsh; not forgivable. You might want to remind them of that fact. |
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Aug 1 2006, 05:14 AM
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#19
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
If doing so would fit the tone and style of the campaign I wish to create, then yes. So far it hasn't happened while running Shadowrun, but I can see types of campaigns where I might consider it.
Nope, unlike Equipment, Contacts, and maybe Knowledge Skills (I would have to think long and hard about Knowledge Skills though.) I can't foresee myself running a campaign where giving an Active Skill for free would fit with the possible exception of using Shadowrun Rules to run something akin to The Matrix movies....
*Shrugs* Call it a matter of semitics, but I'd rather add a Bonus to Char-Gen then take something away from the Player's control.
So? What's wrong with running what amounts to a 410 BP campaign? If I remember correctly, 450-500 BP campaigns are suggested somewhere as an alternative... Besides, it's fully my right as Keeper of Fate to say no to them if they decide to pester me for things that I don't believe would make a better and balanced campaign.
I suppose that's one way of looking at it, personally I see giving what amounts to a couple of free contacts as carrying on one of the traditions of Shadowrun without unduely affecting gamebalance. Although I do wonder how you've equalited more-or-less following what I believe to be the spirit of Third Edition's take on Contacts to running a campaign that isn't harsh and unforgiving on the characters... |
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Aug 1 2006, 06:04 AM
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#20
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Look, without at least one contact, how on earth are you going to get jobs? No fixer or Mr. Johnson, or friends to pass you work, means that you won't get any. A contact is more than a useful bonus; they're necessary *plot devices* to make the whole concept of Shadowrunning viable.
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Aug 1 2006, 03:11 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Partially, although it seems more like just general S&M style GMing. In order of ease of alternatives to Contacts there is buying and selling items as Negotiation+Charisma, see Blackmarket Goods starting page 302. The legworking part of a Contact is really just knowledge skills, with maybe a little surveillance on the side. EDIT And sometimes Data Search. Networking, showing up or convincing someone to do it for you, is probably the toughest alternative. However obviously the character knows people, or knows how to get hold of people, outside the Contact list. Otherwise the first three things wouldn't work at all. Unfortunately how that happens isn't detailed in anyway, and isn't reflected in the rules particularly well. Nor is building new offical Contacts out of people that you incidentally know or meet. Nor increasing the loyalty of existing ones. |
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Aug 1 2006, 03:17 PM
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#22
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I'm seriously considering the Chax2 BP usable for contacts only.
One rule that I've tried that's worked well was this: If more than one member of a team has a particular contact, then all members of that team who have that contact get him at Loyalty rating one higher than they pay for (max is still 6). Obviously, everyone takes the contact at the same connection rating. That's one loyalty point higher, regardless of how many members of the team have that contact, NOT two points higher if three people take the same contact. It seems to make sense to me that a contact would naturally display more loyalty to a runner if the entire team is made up of the contacts friends, rather than a bunch of people he doesn't know. The result that I've observed is, everyone on the team now takes the team's Fixer as a contact (instead of one person on the team taking the Fixer, and everyone else just knowing that PC, which was the situation that originally annoyed me), although they generally still take him at different Loyalty ratings, and they very rarely "double up" on any other contacts. YMMV |
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Aug 1 2006, 06:11 PM
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#23
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Target Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 21-July 06 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 8,936 |
Equalited? I've never played 3rd edition. Before starting up 4th, I only played a few years of 2nd edition back in the mid nineties. Nor will I compare the playstyle of one edition to the next. Only new and inexperienced players will go lite on contacts, from what I can tell. Experienced players should get at least a handful of useful contacts. New players should have a firm reminder of the need for contacts. Players should have to balance contacts with skills or nuyen. Then maybe instead of taking Pistols 6, maybe they'd take Pistols 4 and a 4/4 contact. Though personally, a 4/4 contact (equivelent of 40,000 :nuyen: ) is worth way more than the cash equivelent. As for doubling up contacts. I don't really think its wise for all the members to have the same contacts. Why? If everyone has the same fixer contact, what happens if something happens to the fixer? What if they all have the same Lone Star beatcop as a contact, and he disappears. Maybe he's fired, killed, betrayed the team, or now works the customer service desk. Everyone should have a Johnson and/or Fixer. No one says the others ever need to have the same one as well. This just means that if something happens to Character A, no one can contact any of character A's contacts without difficulty or with the same loyalty rating. Plus, having 3 different fixers might make it easier for the characters to get jobs (roleplaying wise) and maybe increase the chance of finding that hard to get doo-dad you need for a run. |
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Aug 1 2006, 06:22 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
If you want the team to have common contacts you should give them for free and make them a pivotal part of the campaign.
At the very least it's a good explanation of how the team came together. Beside, everyone gets the same amount of BP in order to maintain a rough balance. If you want the whole team to have a particular asset you might as well hand it out for free instead of making them pay for it or devising various incentive schemes because then balance is still maintained while PC only buy with BP things that define them. |
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Aug 1 2006, 07:11 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
I'm with Charon on that :).
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