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> Fump......Boom!, Under Barreled Gernade Launchers.
venenum
post Aug 6 2006, 08:23 PM
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Just a quick question. If you were using and under barreled gernade launcher as on the Ares Alpha or HK XM30 (also the underbarrled shotgun) what skill would you use. Automatics or heavy weapons? The rules are unclear about it so i am asking it here.

P.S. Thanks in advance.
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Brahm
post Aug 6 2006, 08:40 PM
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Heavy Weapons for any GL including the underbarrel mounted one EDIT:Unless it is mounted on a vehicle, then it is Gunnery. I forget the rules reference, but it is in there somewhere. The underbarrel shotgun I assume would be Longarms.
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fool
post Aug 6 2006, 09:29 PM
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in the sr3 rules, you could default at a lower penalty, but I don't see that anywhere in sr4
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hobgoblin
post Aug 6 2006, 09:46 PM
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you can default to agility at -1 die...
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fool
post Aug 6 2006, 09:49 PM
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yeah but that's not defaulting at a reduced rate for using an integrated grenade launcher.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 6 2006, 09:52 PM
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hmm, true. was that in cannon companion?
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venenum
post Aug 6 2006, 11:22 PM
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Hmmm... Just thought of something else. The sniper mode of the HK, would use long arms too. So add a shotgun. Snipe from afar, when the guards find you boom.
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fool
post Aug 6 2006, 11:30 PM
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I don't hav ethe book in front of me but it seems that you would use long arms for the rifle mode, but automatics for the other modes.
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DragonMech
post Nov 23 2006, 12:42 AM
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I've been wondering this as well, lately.

I've often thought that GL's would need separate skill (especially for indirect fire), but then I started thinking of the whole smartlink/integrated weapons thing.

If the GL is a stand-alone product, like the Ares Antioch or the ArmTech MGL-12, then I would agree that, probably, the heavy weapons skill would be used for all modes. I would still be tempted to argue that Heavy Weapons would only be used for indirect fire (ie over obstacles or parabolic arc firing).

The ArmTech MGL-12 is actually configured exactly like a bullpup SMG, and I feel should be fired with the Heavy Pistol skill. Again, unless it is indirect fire.

However, what happens when the GL is a) smartlinked, and b) integrated into another weapon? I'm not talking bolted on underneath the barrell - I mean integrated right from the design phase.

The triggering, loading, and targeting would be very similar to normal weapons fire, except when firing indirect. In fact, I can see an argument for a smartlink to reduce some of the penalties for indirect fire too (but that's best left for another post).

DragonMech
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Aemon
post Nov 23 2006, 05:57 AM
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I believe the smartlink system in the book actually says it has range-finders, arc-trajectory calculators, etc. all integrated into the system. But that's where the +2 bonus to hit comes in, regardless of whatever skill you are using to fire the weapon. I don't think any further bonuses need to be factored in.
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Fortune
post Nov 23 2006, 06:24 AM
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I do think that Heavy Weapons (especially Indirect Fire types) should be linked to Logic instead of Agility though.
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Konsaki
post Nov 23 2006, 07:03 AM
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Why? It's more of an intuition shot at times, and you still need the hand-eye cordination to shoot it accuratly...
If it was a mortar, yeah, logic, but as a hand held device... no.
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Ryu
post Nov 23 2006, 10:48 AM
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They might use heavy weapons/grenade launchers as linked skill, but at agility+1 (smartlink factored in), you can do without skill. Grenades landing close to the target are sufficient.


On the HK XM-30
Id choose the underbarrel weapon depending on secondary skills present, using either a grenade launcher with fragmentation grenades or a shotgun with flechette ammo.
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Crowley
post Nov 24 2006, 06:27 AM
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My GM let me use the underbarrel of my Ares Alpha defaulting (-1) from my Automatics. I was using an airburst, so it was pretty flat trajectories anyway. Bit of a rules patch from 3rd, but it works.
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lorechaser
post Nov 24 2006, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (Crowley)
My GM let me use the underbarrel of my Ares Alpha defaulting (-1) from my Automatics. I was using an airburst, so it was pretty flat trajectories anyway. Bit of a rules patch from 3rd, but it works.

My only concern with this is that it almost completely negates the need to have a single shot grenade launcher in the game.

Unless you're a troll sam who carries a White Knight, most runners are far more likely to have Automatics than Heavy Weapons. So you'll have people going out and picking up an Ares Alpha simply to use the underbelly, and ignoring the gun (not that every runner out there doesn't use one already, but....).

Conceptually, it makes sense, but it also removes the need for a single shot launcher at all.

I think the main thing to keep in mind is that agility-1 is still going to be plenty to get a grenade in the right square - you aren't talking precision shooting, just "within a couple meters". If you have agi of 5, just buy your success, and be done with it....

Course, it's also pretty cheap (6 bp) to get agi+3 for a grenade launcher. All my sam characters have Heavy Weapon (Grenade Launcher)....
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warrior_allanon
post Nov 24 2006, 05:03 PM
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i always agreed that grenade launchers, like the man portable missle launchers should be covered by a "Launch weapons" Skill like they did i SR3
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Ryu
post Nov 24 2006, 05:24 PM
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It might have ended under archery due to its arching trajectory. Not a close match, but closer than the other weapons under "heavy weapons". Be glad you have an excuse to learn heavy weapons, might come in handy.

Concerning the one-shot grenadelauncher becoming obsolete: I think thats the purpose of an underbarrel launcher. Might be wrong, Im not a military type.
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Crowley
post Nov 24 2006, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
Course, it's also pretty cheap (6 bp) to get agi+3 for a grenade launcher.  All my sam characters have Heavy Weapon (Grenade Launcher)....

You have a good point. People who want to get their grenade "kinda over there" could just default from agility and be done with it (particularly with an airburst link and a smartlink, where scatter ends up being 1d6-hits meters and you're rolling enough dice to get at least one hit). Those who want to do better can shell out for the heavy weapons skill- which as you say, are pretty cheap if you just want grenades.
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James McMurray
post Nov 24 2006, 06:10 PM
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QUOTE (lorechaser)
If you have agi of 5, just buy your success, and be done with it....

This assumes your GM lets you buy successes in combat. The buying hits section say it should only be allowed when 1) the character has an exceptionally large dice pool or 2) the situation is non-threatening and non-stressful. Being in combat with 5 dice doesn't match either of those.

Likewise it says it shouldn't be allowed if there is a chance of bad consequences from failure. A missed grenade could hit friendlies or other unwanted targets, so there would be times when a grenade launch shouldn't be buyable even if you have lots of dice and aren't threatened or stressed.
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