 The 2 x skill Success Limit Option, What do you think of it? |
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 Aug 7 2006, 05:31 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583  |
Chances of the skill*2 limit applying using non-exploding dice
Chance of hitting Ceiling ( Attribute + Extra but not skill ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Skill Max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 - 0 - 01 - 00% 00% 11% 26% 41% 54% 65% 74% 81% 86% 90% 92% 95% 96% 97% 98% - 1 - 02 - 00% 04% 11% 21% 32% 43% 53% 62% 70% 77% 82% 86% 89% 92% 94% 96% - 2 - 04 - 00% 00% 01% 02% 04% 09% 14% 21% 29% 37% 45% 52% 60% 66% 72% 77% - 3 - 06 - 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 01% 02% 04% 07% 10% 15% 20% 26% 32% 39% 46% - 4 - 08 - 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 01% 02% 03% 05% 07% 11% 15% 19% - 5 - 10 - 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 01% 01% 02% 04% 06% - 6 - 12 - 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 01% 01% Chances of the skill*2 limit applying using exploding dice Chance of hitting Ceiling ( Attribute + Extra but not skill ) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Skill Max 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 - 0 - 01 - 00% 06% 18% 33% 48% 59% 69% 77% 83% 88% 91% 94% 96% 97% 98% 98% - 1 - 02 - 05% 12% 21% 32% 43% 53% 62% 70% 76% 82% 86% 89% 91% 94% 95% 97% - 2 - 04 - 01% 02% 05% 10% 15% 22% 29% 37% 45% 52% 59% 66% 71% 77% 81% 85% - 3 - 06 - 00% 01% 01% 03% 04% 07% 11% 16% 21% 27% 33% 39% 45% 52% 58% 64% - 4 - 08 - 00% 00% 00% 01% 01% 02% 04% 06% 08% 11% 15% 19% 25% 29% 35% 40% - 5 - 10 - 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 01% 01% 02% 03% 04% 06% 09% 11% 14% 18% 22% - 6 - 12 - 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 01% 01% 01% 02% 03% 05% 06% 09% 11% - 7 - 14 - 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 00% 01% 01% 01% 02% 03% 04% 05% My observations --------------------- This optional rule for the most part as little effect above skill level 2 unless you have a large amount of attribute + extra dice. It pretty much prevents outrageous luck by low or no skill characters. There are some skills where it gets a little uncomfortable to use. For example a character defaulting on Perception would be severely hampered perhaps to the point where the game suffers. Not really a problem since nearly every SR4 character I've seen wants at least a token skill in perception. There are times where it doesn't seem appropriate to apply it against successes from extra dice. For example First Aid using an auto-doc. |
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Aug 7 2006, 05:45 PM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
That is exactly why I like the rule.
Systemically, it's typical for characters to be built with a couple of things they're really good at, and a number of things that are grabbed at 1 so that they don't suffer the defaulting penalty. With a pretty high upper limit on attributes (especially with some of the metaraces) and the ease with which people can get minor cyber (or even non-cyber) augmentations to pools, watching someone with skill 1 throw 12+ dice gets a little old after a while. With the limit in place, they can still throw huge numbers of dice, but they can only really get so far without having some kind of training beyond "oh, it goes THIS way..." The autodoc option is actually something I'm okay with. Ever seen someone use a machine (or cook... cooking's another good example) and thought "Boy, if he'd just stop fiddling with it or trying to outguess the instructions, this would be going smoothly?" If an unskilled character hooks up an autodoc and lets it work, there's no cap. If he hooks it up and tries to make it work the way that he thinks it should, it gets bonus dice... but is limited by his training, since he's overriding a lot of the automatic settings. |
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Aug 7 2006, 05:48 PM
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#3
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I think it's sufficient that the x2 cap applies at the low end as that's where you need it. It's the Logic 8 + Academic Knowledge 1 character doing better than the tenured historian (Log 3 + Ac Kn. 4) that matters. It's not just the probability that matters though. It has a psychological affect on the players. You know you're average roll wont be affected, but just think of the frustration when you get six sixes and only two of them count. |
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Aug 7 2006, 05:59 PM
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#4
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
I'm introducing this rule in my game, I'll try to keep some records of how it goes. So far the only one to complain is the player that has to constantly have his characters limited anyway.
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Aug 7 2006, 07:23 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 983 Joined: 20-February 06 Member No.: 8,286 |
Against ranged combat, a defender just rolls Reaction, but when using full defense, he uses Reaction + Dodge. Would you remove the x2 skill limit in this case?
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Aug 7 2006, 07:54 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 97 Joined: 30-January 06 Member No.: 8,213 |
I am planning to impliment the skillx2 rule.
Also I am thinking of using dodge in range combat the same as in melee so the players could use dodge + reaction and dodge+dodge+reaction but I would limit the dodge skill to being used skill x before they have to go on full defense. I understand were the writers are coming from when the say it's harder to dodge bullets than swords but I like to make players skills more useful. |
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Aug 7 2006, 08:32 PM
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#7
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Yes. |
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Aug 7 2006, 08:48 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
You could reasonably assume that since it isn't a skill test the skill cap wouldn't apply. The same could probably be said of any Attribute + Attribute tests like Drain Resistance. |
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Aug 7 2006, 10:36 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 732 Joined: 21-July 05 From: Seattle Member No.: 7,508 |
If you use this rule, then some tests will be impossible. For example, hacking a node with system rating 6, a firewall of 6, and getting an admin account (+6). You need to get 18.
Only someone with a 9 in Hacking would be able to do this... Adepts? Data searches would also be limited... your data search skill of 6 only could bring you back 12 hits... although the adventure On the Run has information coming at 16 hits on a data search. These are both extended test situations. In extended tests, the number of hits necessary can be high. You might want to consider a different cap on extended tests (such as limiting the number of rolls by the skill level or the dice pool, which I've heard mentioned several times). |
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Aug 7 2006, 10:55 PM
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#10
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
One potential solution for this would be to apply the cap to each interval, thus requiring a minimum of 2 intervals for your hacking test example to be completed. |
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Aug 8 2006, 07:54 AM
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#11
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
yep, those are both extended tests. and i belive the 2*skill limit only apply for each individual roll, not the total...
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Aug 8 2006, 08:49 AM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I rpefer the:
1+skill max hits on skill critical tests, rule. Skill critical tests are: Knowledge skills computers electronic warfare mechanics ... Skill uncritical tests are: combat dodging perception dodging ... Furthermore I restrict certain extended tests to "Skill" rolls, like trying to get a certain piece of equipement. Tis makes the availability rules meaningfull again. Both rules were tested mathematically and deliver satisfactory results. |
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Aug 8 2006, 06:38 PM
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#13
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
I think, as written, the rule only applies to the maximum number of successes you can get on each test. Since an Extended Test consists of a string of tests, it'd just max how quickly you could move towards the end result. |
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