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Brahm

Aug 9 2006, 07:56 PM

Post #126

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QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 9 2006, 01:41 PM)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 9 2006, 02:36 PM)

QUOTE

Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s effective
Strength solely for the purpose of determining range and
damage of thrown weapons and objects.

Now they did throw in the, as far as I know, undefined word 'effective'. But other than that it seems pretty clear that it boosts Str and not range and damage.

The Power Throw power does not augment the Strength Attribute and so it is not subject to Att. caps. In fact it also adds nothing to your Strength + Throwing skill dice pool meaning it is not a dice pool modifier either.

Its effects are expressed outside the Test mechanisms. What it does is allow you to calculate maximum throwing range and damage the thrown object does (and only those two things) as if you had a higher Strength rating of 2 per level of Power Throw.

I must say that is monumentally crappy wording choice then. :P Why didn't you just say +1 to damage and +20% to range or something? Or be a bit more explicit that it isn't capped.

Brahm

Aug 9 2006, 07:58 PM

Post #127

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QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 9 2006, 01:43 PM)

Thanks, thats exactly what I would have said.

Same goes for bone density and combat sense.

I wouldn't be so sure, because those are added to Attribute and then added to the dice Pool. Well the bone density is. I'd have to look at the combat sense again.

Geekkake

Aug 9 2006, 08:27 PM

Post #128

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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 9 2006, 01:43 PM)

Thanks, thats exactly what I would have said.

Same goes for bone density and combat sense.

I wouldn't be so sure, because those are added to Attribute and then added to the dice Pool. Well the bone density is. I'd have to look at the combat sense again.

I believe Combat Sense levels are added to your dodge pool, rather than your Dodge skill or Reaction attribute. This would defy the cap.

SL James

Aug 9 2006, 08:34 PM

Post #129

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QUOTE (Synner)

Mentalist adepts are indeed still possible and get a few options (including all the old SR3 powers, Analytics, and the updated Cognition and Psychometry metamagics). Quite a few other options were left on the drawing board and are something we may well develop further down the line.

So, no Tracking... yet?

Mr. Unpronouncea... Mr. Unpronounceable View Member Profile	Aug 9 2006, 08:41 PM Post #130
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770	Other than the standard Astral Tracking in the main book? Not that I noticed. Also, force-of-personality attacks vs. spirits and material links are back (didn't see those mentioned.)

Brahm View Member Profile	Aug 9 2006, 08:46 PM Post #131
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006	Tracking is a Physical Skill, found along with Navigation and Survival in the Outdoors Group. So Adepts can use Improved Ability (Track) at 0.25 PP/level to improve their ability to Track. Plus any aid that Improve Senses might provide. It is possible that Analytics might even provide bonus dice, although there is nothing in the rules specifically about that use.

SL James View Member Profile	Aug 9 2006, 09:43 PM Post #132
Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473	Oh, I didn't realize that IA worked for Tracking. Duh....

Sunder14 View Member Profile	Aug 9 2006, 09:59 PM Post #133
Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 2,109	Anyone else catch the cardboard tube samurai reference on page 92?

Slithery D

Aug 9 2006, 10:04 PM

Post #134

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QUOTE

Also, force-of-personality attacks vs. spirits and material links are back (didn't see those mentioned.)

Probably because material links were an obvious gimme, and force-of-personality attacks are suicidally useless with the given mechanic in almost all cases. Gee, my sammie/technomancer/hacker gets to roll his Willpower + a skill he won't have to hit. The spirit laughs and takes pity on me, and only rolls his Reaction to avoid, because he doesn't need to add in any Dodge or Unarmed Combat to be sure of success. If I burn Edge and get a freak hit, my damage is based on Charisma, which is always extremely high for non-mage/face characters. (And then if it's a fire elemental, he gets his revenge for the scratch I inflicted when I auto cook in his aura.)

To be fair, there wasn't really a better way they could have done it. And I suppose in theory the mosquitos can eventually overwhelm the bug zapper through sheer numbers. Or keep it busy until the power goes off at dawn or dusk.

Mr. Unpronouncea... Mr. Unpronounceable View Member Profile	Aug 9 2006, 10:07 PM Post #135
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770	Now, now...a loaded elf technomancer should seriously worry spirits. :grinbig:

Lebo77

Aug 9 2006, 10:07 PM

Post #136

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QUOTE (Slithery D)

QUOTE

Also, force-of-personality attacks vs. spirits and material links are back (didn't see those mentioned.)

Probably because material links were an obvious gimme, and force-of-personality attacks are suicidally useless with the given mechanic in almost all cases. Gee, my sammie/technomancer/hacker gets to roll his Willpower + a skill he won't have to hit. The spirit laughs and takes pity on me, and only rolls his Reaction to avoid, because he doesn't need to add in any Dodge or Unarmed Combat to be sure of success. If I burn Edge and get a freak hit, my damage is based on Charisma, which is always extremely high for non-mage/face characters. (And then if it's a fire elemental, he gets his revenge for the scratch I inflicted when I auto cook in his aura.)

To be fair, there wasn't really a better way they could have done it. And I suppose in theory the mosquitos can eventually overwhelm the bug zapper through sheer numbers. Or keep it busy until the power goes off at dawn or dusk.

Might work against a F-1 spirit... Maybe the face could even beat down a F-2.

venenum View Member Profile	Aug 9 2006, 10:28 PM Post #137
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 168 Joined: 6-August 06 Member No.: 9,033	Wording question: would the familiar ordeal cost you the karma to make the ally spirit or is that inclueded in the initation cost.

Synner

Aug 9 2006, 10:44 PM

Post #138

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QUOTE (Brahm)

I must say that is monumentally crappy wording choice then. :P Why didn't you just say +1 to damage and +20% to range or something? Or be a bit more explicit that it isn't capped.

I wouldn't say crappy wording since the description specifically says exactly where the modified Strength is applicable.

To answer your question: mainly because those values didn't really give me the curve that I intended. Modifiers to damage tend to get wonky real easy when cumulative with variable damage codes (like thrown objects would have).

Synner

Aug 9 2006, 10:46 PM

Post #139

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QUOTE (venenum)

Wording question: would the familiar ordeal cost you the karma to make the ally spirit or is that inclueded in the initation cost.

It is not included. You just get a discount to the initiation if you produce an Ally during it, instead of paying full price for both.

Brahm

Aug 9 2006, 11:44 PM

Post #140

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QUOTE (Synner)

QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 9 2006, 07:56 PM)

I must say that is monumentally crappy wording choice then. :P Why didn't you just say +1 to damage and +20% to range or something? Or be a bit more explicit that it isn't capped.

I wouldn't say crappy wording since the description specifically says exactly where the modified Strength is applicable.

Yes, the modified Strength that apparently avoids the cap in a way that isn't detailed in the rules anywhere. Of course this is a issue whose root lies in the core book. But you, and I use that pronoun in the collective, have now perpetuated the problem into another book. :(

Serbitar View Member Profile	Aug 9 2006, 11:49 PM Post #141
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534	As I said: Only modifiers that apply to an attribute all the time count towards the cap. The rest is bonus dice or whatever for a test. This is consistent and works.

Synner

Aug 9 2006, 11:54 PM

Post #142

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QUOTE (Brahm)

Yes, the modified Strength that apparently avoids the cap in a way that isn't detailed in the rules anywhere. Of course this is a issue whose root lies in the core book. But you, and I use that pronoun in the collective, have now perpetuated the problem into another book. :(

I would note that the instances where some modifier factors into a cap are all explicitly stated in the accompanying text. I've only found one situation in the core book where this isn't the case. In all others (subject to revision by keener eyes than mine) the text explicitly states whether the modifier is an Attribute modifier, a skill modifier or a dice pool modifier.

If you have any lingering doubts please mail them in and we'll try to address them in the upcoming FAQ.

Serbitar View Member Profile	Aug 10 2006, 12:12 AM Post #143
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534	I do not understand this. The adept power discussed here also explicitly states that it improves an attribute. But it is not subject to capping. So what is the discriminating point wheter something is subject of capping? A) The presence or absence of the word "bonus" somewhere B) Whether it is augmenting the attribute permanently for every test or not C) Whether an attribute is mentioned or not Your post looks like you say C (by discriminating attributes, skills and pool modifiers), but this would mean the adept power is capped. So I dont get it.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 10 2006, 12:24 AM Post #144
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	it improves the stat for a limited set of circumstances. ie, its not a boosted attribute as much as its boosted range and damage of a trown object.

Synner

Aug 10 2006, 12:31 AM

Post #145

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QUOTE (Serbitar @ Aug 10 2006, 12:12 AM)

I do not understand this.
The adept power discussed here also explicitly states that it improves an attribute. But it is not subject to capping.

So what is the discriminating point wheter something is subject of capping?

The adept power as written specifically does not modify your Attribute. What it does is modify your Strength rating solely for the purpose of calculating range and damage. The main reason for this was so that it could be combined with augmented STR from another power or boost.

Had the power been intended to modify/augment the Attribute, it would read something like:

QUOTE

Each level of this power adds 2 to the character’s Strength whenever he employs a thrown weapon and object. This modifier also counts for the purpose of determining range and damage of thrown weapons and objects.

Had space not been at a premium I would have probably written something like:

QUOTE

When using any form of thrown weapon, this power allows a character to calculate throwing ranges and object damage as if he had an additonal +2 points in his Strength rating for each level taken in this power.

Serbitar View Member Profile	Aug 10 2006, 12:49 AM Post #146
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534	Ok I get your reasoning. But thats really hard to get without bing told explicitly (at least for me). Maybe it would have been esier to just write a (capped) or (noncapped) bracket behind every modifier in SR4. At the moment this whole capping issue is becoming a real streamlining grave. To sum up: You are indeed voting for C) (everything that augments an attribute is capped), but the admin power is not really boosting the attribute, it just behaves like it would boost it. I really want to get that straight, as Nyx over at Fanpro Germany forum (implicitly) mentioned something like bone density would not count towards the attribute cap as it is giving only a boost ofr damage tests.

Brahm

Aug 10 2006, 12:52 AM

Post #147

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QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 9 2006, 07:31 PM)

What it does is modify your Strength rating solely for the purpose of calculating range and damage.

So where is the rule that explains that those modifiers are not subject to the cap? Also, Strength isn't actually used for anything else when throwing an object, right? I'm pretty sure that Throwing Weapons is Agility linked.

QUOTE

The main reason for this was so that it could be combined with augmented STR from another power or boost.

True that that is a problem with, and only a problem with, the curiously shortsightedly worded Attribute Boost. :P

QUOTE

Had space not been at a premium I would have probably written something like:

QUOTE

When using any form of thrown weapon, this power allows a character to calculate throwing ranges and object damage as if he had an additonal +2 points in his Strength rating for each level taken in this power.

Um, that is shorter than what is in the book. :P Or at least it is in the Times NR font.

Synner View Member Profile	Aug 10 2006, 01:33 AM Post #148
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185	I know that FanPro intends to address what currently falls under the capped modifiers in the upcoming FAQ, so that should help clarify things... And no I don't know when that'll be ready. It'll be ready when its ready.

Dr. Dodge

Aug 10 2006, 02:35 AM

Post #149

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QUOTE (Synner @ Aug 9 2006, 08:33 PM)

I know that FanPro intends to address what currently falls under the capped modifiers in the upcoming FAQ, so that should help clarify things... And no I don't know when that'll be ready. It'll be ready when its ready.

sometime in smarch i'm sure.

Rotbart van Dain...

Aug 10 2006, 06:52 AM

Post #150

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QUOTE (Synner)

I know that FanPro intends to address what currently falls under the capped modifiers in the upcoming FAQ, so that should help clarify things...

Let's just hope there aren't too many exceptions. Otherwise, the whole subject of having augmented caps at all would become meaningless... and if magic is the mayor exception, the good, old feeling of SR becoming Adeptrun would rise again.

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