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> Psychic Phenomenon, Recording and the Law
Samaels Ghost
post Aug 9 2006, 03:05 AM
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Can what a Magician sees in the astral be recorded via a Simrig?

If not, what other alternatives do mages have for making a permanent record of astral signatures?

If there is no way, as I suspect is true, I see magical crimes being very hard to prosecute. The word of the forensic assenser would be the only magical evidence that links the criminal to the crime, and that's a dangerous road. Assensers would be bribed all the time. They could probably even get someone convicted that wasn't gulity. Even if mulitple assensers have to testify....

How does law enforcement handle the recording of and prosecution based on magical evidence?
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RunnerPaul
post Aug 9 2006, 03:26 AM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost)
Can what a Magician sees in the astral be recorded via a Simrig?

As far as I know, astral perceptions have never been recordable with simsense technology. The closest they come is to record the physiological changes caused by changes in the subject's emotional state, but without perceptual cues to give those emotions context, a sim recording of someone astrally projecting comes across like a recording of a blind/deaf/comatose person on a cocktail of mood altering drugs.

I believe one of the sourcebooks detailed a way to capture auras on film, but I forget which one. One of the SotAs maybe? I seem to recall it wasn't particularly reliable, but I may be mis-remembering entirely.
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Brahm
post Aug 9 2006, 05:06 AM
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It was indeed one of SOTAs, and it was the old style still cameras that are purported to be able to capture current day 'auras'. But in fact it is just visual artifacts of the crappy old tech.

Of course this means that only still photos of very stable phenomina can be photographed this way.

QUOTE
How does law enforcement handle the recording of and prosecution based on magical evidence?

Similar as to what happens today in many other fields. Expert witnesses who communicate with others in the trade using some sort of specialized techincal shorthand notation, AKA jargon, to describe what they 'see'. Sort of like shorthand for the spirit formula of a spirit's True Name.
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TonkaTuff
post Aug 9 2006, 05:32 AM
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Somewhat interestingly, the blurb in SotA 64 also says that they'd determined that Kirlian photos were also legitimate recordings of astral phenomena. Which, given the technique employed, could have some interesting implications regarding the intereaction of Mana and good ol' mundane electricity.

The use of manual cameras in astral photography also offers some interesting possibilities - for instance, building a free-standing camera obscura and taking large-scale astral photos of power sites, cities, corp holdings, etc. Or the liberation of same from those who already thought of it.
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Smokeskin
post Aug 9 2006, 05:50 AM
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QUOTE (Brahm)

QUOTE
How does law enforcement handle the recording of and prosecution based on magical evidence?

Similar as to what happens today in many other fields. Expert witnesses who communicate with others in the trade using some sort of specialized techincal shorthand notation, AKA jargon, to describe what they 'see'. Sort of like shorthand for the spirit formula of a spirit's True Name.

This doesn't work, the defense won't have any chance to examine the evidence.

Astral clues will have to be handled like any other officer testimony that can't be proven afterwards, like accounts of what an officer heard or saw the accused do. Astral clues will count somewhat, but it won't be hard evidence.
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JRDobbs
post Aug 9 2006, 01:31 PM
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I don't think Simrig recording was addressed in SM (mind you, I only scanned through it last night....yum....), but I would argue that Simsense recordings should work if the magician has payed for the simrig with essence. Now, would a mundane brain be able to process the simsense signal to understand what it was like to astrally percieve/aura read? Probably not--the psychic sense parts of the brain which allow mages to view the astral may simply not exist in mundanes. YMMV.
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Westiex
post Aug 9 2006, 01:33 PM
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It may simply be used to link crimes together, or provide leads for the police to track.
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Brahm
post Aug 9 2006, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 9 2006, 12:50 AM)
QUOTE (Brahm @ Aug 9 2006, 07:06 AM)

QUOTE
How does law enforcement handle the recording of and prosecution based on magical evidence?

Similar as to what happens today in many other fields. Expert witnesses who communicate with others in the trade using some sort of specialized techincal shorthand notation, AKA jargon, to describe what they 'see'. Sort of like shorthand for the spirit formula of a spirit's True Name.

This doesn't work, the defense won't have any chance to examine the evidence.

Astral clues will have to be handled like any other officer testimony that can't be proven afterwards, like accounts of what an officer heard or saw the accused do. Astral clues will count somewhat, but it won't be hard evidence.

That is what I mean. They are likely to be experts in the field that are witnessing, that of observing and perhaps even interpreting astral phenomenon and signatures. Their court recognized training/testing would give them that standing, which of course the defense can attempt to challenge. Their testimony, potentially including field notes, avidavits, filed reports, etc., are the evidence. The defense of course gets to see the documents in advance, outside of perhaps their own personal notes, and then cross-examine during trial.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 9 2006, 02:17 PM
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and the defense may well call in their own experts to go over the evidence.

and i guess it would be more CSI then grunt cop with a gift...
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Brahm
post Aug 9 2006, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 9 2006, 09:17 AM)
and the defense may well call in their own experts to go over the evidence.

and i guess it would be more CSI then grunt cop with a gift...

A 'grunt' cop with a gift might give testimony, or even awakened bystanders. However I would imagine that would end up with dueling interpretation experts taking the stand. I imagine that most Awakened cops would have at least a rudimentary training course to help punch up their credibility, as well as actually assisting in investigations.
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James McMurray
post Aug 9 2006, 02:30 PM
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There's also the issue of "does everyone see auras the same?" IIRC there are no rules regarding what an aura looks like, just what can be read from it and whether it is recognizable or not. If traditions, or even worse people without regard to tradition, see auras differently then their admissability as evidence goes away almost completely.

Also, most courts in SR will not be of the "innocent until proven guilty" variety. Corporate courts will most likely be dictatorships. Lone Star courtrooms might be more fair, but there is always an eye towards what the city officials that pay the bills want to see (more convictions faster). This would hold doubly true for crimes committed by the SINless.
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Smokeskin
post Aug 9 2006, 02:39 PM
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There is no evidence for the experts to battle over. You don't have blood spatter photos or autopsy recordings or any sort of tangible evidence. You only have the testimony from the astral cop, since there is no astral evidence that can be gathered and the defense can have an expert go over. An astral cop saying he saw the accused's signature at the site doesn't have any actual proof, you only have his statement, with the possibility of human mistake or dishonesty giving the defendant the benefit of the doubt.

Btw, do Lone Star also run the courts? If so, only criminal court or is it all legal functions?
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Brahm
post Aug 9 2006, 02:45 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 9 2006, 09:39 AM)
There is no evidence for the experts to battle over. You don't have blood spatter photos or autopsy recordings or any sort of tangible evidence. You only have the testimony from the astral cop, since there is no astral evidence that can be gathered and the defense can have an expert go over. An astral cop saying he saw the accused's signature at the site doesn't have any actual proof, you only have his statement, with the possibility of human mistake or dishonesty giving the defendant the benefit of the doubt.

They can give a description of the signature or phenomenon, explaining what they noted and the matching features that form the basis of that opinion, as long as the opinion doesn't fall into the realm of speculation for his given level of court recognized expertise. This would be particularly important for matching spell signatures and such together and to a person.

The experts get to duel over the interpretation of what he describes. It is like getting to the scene and noting the size and location of blood splatters before a rainstorm washes them away. The direct witness might not have standing with the court to interpret the splatters, but his testimony still becomes evidence, and then dueling blood splatter experts come in to talk about what the witness's observations mean.
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hobgoblin
post Aug 9 2006, 02:49 PM
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the tradition aspect i guess is why hermetic is a school like tradition.
there people are trained to read auras the same way, with defined ways of describing them.

therefor a expert from the defense could read over the hermetics description of the aura (or maybe see a still of the scene of crime taken with the camera runnerpaul talked about) and then compare said description with the defendants aura, and give testimony on the interpetation.
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James McMurray
post Aug 9 2006, 03:11 PM
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I wasn't thinking about reading them differently, but perceiving them differently. Perhaps Joe sees anger as dark red because that's typical, but Steve sees anger as a murky brown because his dad was always an angry whiskey drunk (which also pissed off Steve).
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Brahm
post Aug 9 2006, 03:25 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Aug 9 2006, 09:49 AM)
the tradition aspect i guess is why hermetic is a school like tradition.
there people are trained to read auras the same way, with defined ways of describing them.

All you'd need would be some standardized test. It is like worrying if everyone sees the color 'red' the same. It doesn't really matter, all you need to do is prove you can reliably identify tones and hues.

It is like the 1 day course for becoming a legal witness to air stack particulate emissions. They've got a little portable air stack mockup on a trailer with a gas flame running at the bottom. They then introduce material that comes out as particulates at the top and you have to read the opacicy with your eyeball at the correct location of the plume. You do that a number of times and if your recorded observed readings fall within a certain margin of error you can give testimony that has an expert witness standing in regards to polution.

I had this myself at one time, but let it lapse because I ended up in a different field that I didn't need it. So it wasn't worth the hassle and cost of getting recertified.
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Samaels Ghost
post Aug 9 2006, 03:34 PM
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Do you think that thoughts obtained by Mind Probe are admissable in court?
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Brahm
post Aug 9 2006, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 9 2006, 10:34 AM)
Do you think that thoughts obtained by Mind Probe are admissable in court?

I'm pretty sure there was a thread or two around here, likely in the Shadowrun forum, speculating about that. I seem to remember the thought line that it might fall under the 5th Amendment, but at the least would require a warrant. It should be noted that that assumes a Constitution or laws in place in whatever jurisdiction that are similar to the US Constitution. Which may or may not be the case, as the US is no more. For the USCA Canada, the 'C' part, has a similar legal concepts. But when you get some folks together to write out a Constitution it's hard to say WTF you'll come out with, and then you'll have court interpretations of that.
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Moon-Hawk
post Aug 9 2006, 04:07 PM
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I'm pretty sure an old SR book said exactly that. I'm thinking maybe Awakenings, but I'm not sure. Basically, mind probe is self-incrimination and is inadmissable.
Sorry, I don't have a page reference or quote.
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Smokeskin
post Aug 9 2006, 04:07 PM
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We'll probably be facing technological mind-reading in the courts very soon if not already.

I believe there is already a (although very limited) mind-reading device in existance already - basically if you see something you've seen before, your brain accesses memory and gets a "hit", which gives a significantly different pattern of brain activity than if you don't recognize what you see. Show a suspect pictures of the crime scene, victims etc. and you'll be able to see if his brain has encountered it before. This is believed to be consistently accurate, ie very few false positives or negative (compared to current lie detectors that give a lot of false "lie" readings). AFAIK this is currently being evaluated by a US court to determine if it is admissable.
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Moon-Hawk
post Aug 9 2006, 04:10 PM
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Sounds like a 5th amendment violation to me.
Of course, it'll probably be like a lie detector. They can't force you to take one, but you can elect to take one, and if you refuse then they get to speculate about why you might've refused.
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Smokeskin
post Aug 9 2006, 04:33 PM
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Regarding mind probing being legal:

- Probably the mind prober can't help but get to see a lot of other and very personal stuff about the person - unless there's some way around this I don't see it becoming legal.

- get accused of a crime and get your mind read. I don't see this getting allowed at all. Popular opinion and civil rights groups would go crazy if something like that was introduced.
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Brahm
post Aug 9 2006, 04:38 PM
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Of course in the 6th world people that go crazy like that tend to die in accidents like slipping in the shower and falling on bullets.
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James McMurray
post Aug 9 2006, 04:41 PM
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"But Officer, he tripped and fell onto my knife."

"37 times"

"Yeah, crazy ain't it?" <slips him a certified credstick>

"Yeah, that is crazy. You're free to go."
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hobgoblin
post Aug 9 2006, 06:43 PM
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the lawfullness of mind probes in court seems to vary from nation to nation. the UCAS dont as they have that old USA 5th stuff going. but some NAN and maybe the tir's do.
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