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> Got a doubt!, Skills and Skills Groups
Smity
post Aug 9 2006, 05:20 PM
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Hi! This is my first topic in here but I'm used to the shadows. Now with the beginning of a new campeing in 4th edition my pals and me are creating new runners with the new building system, and thats when we found this doubt:

When creating a character, it is posible to break a purchased Skill Group purchasing a skill of the group separately? I mean, if you have a Skill Group at ratting 3, can You buy a skill of that group at a higher ratting and break the SG in the process? Or You simply cannot adquire a skill at a higher ratting if You already have it in a SG? Or You can only do it with karma points?

That's it chummers. If You can be quick with the answer I'll be very grateful because we beggin the campeing this Friday. Thanks!

PD:sorry in case my gramatics are not very good but I'm Spanish and I'm still learning the language ^^
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James McMurray
post Aug 9 2006, 05:26 PM
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Nope. If you buy it as a group it stays as a group.
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zeb.hillard
post Aug 9 2006, 05:27 PM
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And I'll give you perhaps the most non-committial answer there is.
It isn't strictly prohibited by the books, but it isn't strictly allowed, either. I suppose it would be up to the person running the game.
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zeb.hillard
post Aug 9 2006, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
Nope. If you buy it as a group it stays as a group.

Can you only break a group by making a purchase of the individual skill with Karma? I could never find that particular notation in the book.
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Smity
post Aug 9 2006, 05:31 PM
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In first place, thanks for the fast replies. In second place We got to the same conclusion, but We wanted to be sure about this point just in case.
Thanks again and see you in the shadows!
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James McMurray
post Aug 9 2006, 05:32 PM
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Not if my smartgun sees you first. :)
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Smity
post Aug 9 2006, 05:36 PM
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QUOTE (zeb.hillard)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 9 2006, 12:26 PM)
Nope. If you buy it as a group it stays as a group.

Can you only break a group by making a purchase of the individual skill with Karma? I could never find that particular notation in the book.

About breaking a SG via karma it's in page 264, and yes, there's no other place on the manual about breaking SG.

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Sepherim
post Aug 9 2006, 06:11 PM
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Welcome aboard Smity. Told you they would be quick to answer. ;-)
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Dread Polack
post Aug 9 2006, 06:12 PM
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I'm a little confused by the terminology here, and don't have my book handy. Here's my quandry:

Can I buy Sorcery Skill Group 3, for 30 points, then buy my Spellcasting up to 5 for 8 more points?

If so, is the skill group "broken" now, and you can't raise your group from 3 to 4, for 20 karma, and your Spellcasting will be 6? This doesn't sound kosher to me.

Is a "broken skill group" defined as one that no longer has identical values in all skills within the group?

Dread Polack
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James McMurray
post Aug 9 2006, 06:15 PM
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During character creation if you purchase a skill group they all have to have the same value, so your example of raising spellcasting will not work. After creation you can raise specific skills via karma, but if you do you can never again raise them all at once as a group.

QUOTE
Is a "broken skill group" defined as one that no longer has identical values in all skills within the group?


Yes.
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Lagomorph
post Aug 9 2006, 06:23 PM
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Once all skills are at the same skill level, I believe you can use them as a skill group again.
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Aug 9 2006, 06:49 PM
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As long as you didn't specialize any of the skills.
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Brahm
post Aug 9 2006, 07:38 PM
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QUOTE (Dread Polack @ Aug 9 2006, 01:12 PM)
Can I buy Sorcery Skill Group 3, for 30 points, then buy my Spellcasting up to 5 for 8 more points?


Since you seem to be using BPs to increase Spellcasting, therefore that is all during character generation, no that is not legal. You cannot purchase and then break up a Skill Group during character creation. This also means you can't purchase Specializations during character creation, not that you normally want to do that much anyway because it is a 2 BP cost that later costs only 2 karma.

QUOTE
If so, is the skill group "broken" now, and you can't raise your group from 3 to 4, for 20 karma, and your Spellcasting will be 6? This doesn't sound kosher to me.

It is pork ribs, smothered in creamy butter, and all cooked up by a Gentile. Definately not kosher. :)
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CONAN9845
post Aug 9 2006, 10:33 PM
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Where is it noted that starting characters cannot break skill groups just as they would with Karma during play? Just curious, because I can't find it, and I have a character that did just that.

Also, Specializations are certainly allowed at chargen. It's covered quite clearly on p. 75.
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James McMurray
post Aug 9 2006, 10:37 PM
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It's not anywhere. It's a case of "the rules say you can break them with karma, they don't say you can break them with BP, ergo you cannot break them with BP." Do a search on skill groups for more info, as this has come up multiple times. Most people agree that you cannot break the group or specialize during char gen, but not everybody.
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CONAN9845
post Aug 9 2006, 10:46 PM
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Okay, so it's just the fact that people generally agree, and not something that is specifically stated. That's typical SR for you. lol So I am not breaking any written rule.

On the case of Specializations... that's specifically allowed in the rules. It even says that it costs 2 BP on p. 75.
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Jaid
post Aug 9 2006, 11:42 PM
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the point was made that after you specialise a skill, any skill group that includes that skill is broken and cannot be put together again afterwards. this is correct.

so far as i noticed, no one ever suggested that you cannot specialise at chargen. though of course, i may have missed something.
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Samaels Ghost
post Aug 9 2006, 11:52 PM
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Brahm did
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Mr. Unpronouncea...
post Aug 10 2006, 12:08 AM
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More accurately, he pointed out that it is specifically prohibited to specialize a skill in a skill group - whether during chargen or afterward.

You can however, specialize a skill that has been purchased separately (during chargen or later) or one that has been broken out of a skill group post-chargen.
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Brahm
post Aug 10 2006, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (Samaels Ghost @ Aug 9 2006, 06:52 PM)
Brahm did

It was actually Rob Boyle from Fanpro in an email posted here a long, long time back. I don't remember who posted it up though. But it is in there along with the inability to break up a Group during character creation by purchasing additional points for a Skill within the Group. He covered a few other things on the subject too.

EDIT Here we go, the email is right at the top.
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CONAN9845
post Aug 10 2006, 12:02 PM
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I didn't read anything in that initial post/email that says it's either disallowed to take a specialization or break up a skill group at chargen.
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Brahm
post Aug 10 2006, 02:10 PM
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Oops, that particular isn't in that one. Sorry, didn't read close enough, I was just doing a quick Search to help you out. That one just talks about any Specialization breaking the Group. You'll have to get back on the Search engine and find it.

But basically the gist of it is you can't break a Skill Group during creation because there is no progression during creation. You either have something or you don't. If you have a Specialization you don't have a Group, therefore you aren't using Group costs to calculate the starting point of the character.
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CONAN9845
post Aug 10 2006, 02:24 PM
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How can you say that there's no progression during chargen? There isn't a set amount of BPs for each level of skill... say 1 BP for level one, 3 for level 2, and 5 for level three. It's simply 4 points per level, 10 for groups. It's cumulative, and progression is built right in. It can be handled just like after chargen.

Not that I am saying that your interpretation is incorrect. It's your interpretation, and you are entitled to it. I just don't see how mine can be considered incorrect, either. It's just another interpretation.
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Charon
post Aug 10 2006, 02:39 PM
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QUOTE (CONAN9845 @ Aug 10 2006, 09:24 AM)
How can you say that there's no progression during chargen?

You buy a result straight up and every points of skill is worth the same in terms of cost in chargen.

During play, each point is worth progressively more as you raise.

Breaking Firearm group at level 1 to get 2 in pistols during play doesn't make that much sense. It costs 4 point of karma for pistols 2 but for only 6 more you get to raise the whole group which I think would be in the better interest of the player.

Breaking firearm group at 4 during play is obviously a good idea. It would cost you 25 karma to raise the group which is quite a few runs. But for 10 karma you get to 5 in pistols. More affordable.

So in play, the pressure to break SG increase with the rating of the SG.

In chargen it'd be 4 BP no matter what. So in chargen it would be optimum to take skill group and break them at will.

And instead of 'breaking the skill group', it would be more in effect like getting a discount on the other skills of the group.

A skill of 6 cost 24. Then for 6 point per level you can get the other skill up to 4.

That's how people would do it in practice. Get any skill they want and then toss 6 to 24 more BP to up the rest of the group. Often just 6 because just having the skill instead of deafaulting is a big deal. Lots of 4/1 in perspective.

Good? Bad? Seems to me the game was balanced against it in a way that equilibrate the specialists and the generalists.

The end result if you disallow breaking SG in chargen is that a PC who favors Skill Groups ends up with more total skill rank than the guy who favored individual skill, but the guy who favored individual skill has a significant edge in a few specific area.

I like it, I must say.
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CONAN9845
post Aug 10 2006, 02:55 PM
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While I will agree that makes perfect sense, and I don't dislike your interpretation, I still don't see how I am breaking the rules with my own interpretation.

In the end, if it works for us, then why not? Especially if it doesn't seem to violate the rules. Not that we are sticklers for them anyway.
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