 Killing Rommel, How do you kill overcomplicated plans? |
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 Aug 10 2006, 12:55 PM
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#26
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
Air vents and sewers are two spaces that are almost always non-traversible, at least not in any useful manner.
At least they have been in all of the dozens of hospitals, offices, houses, churches, schools, etc. that I've worked on the plans for. (And I'd assume most players don't say "I turn off my phone", the way most players don't say "I go to the bathroom". Do you have players involuntarily urinate or suffer bladder explosion?) ~J |
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Aug 10 2006, 12:57 PM
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#27
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
It should, but again look at the Japanese planning during WW2. They were terminally guilty of doing what Napolean called "Painiting a picture." They were sure they knew exactly what was going to happen and built up all sort of eleborate plans to go along with this but once the plan hit a snag, the whole thing tended to fall apart like a house of cards. The British stand at Kohima was a great example as the Japanese supply lines fell apart because their movement was meticulously planned to go through ground the British still held. The best example is Midway, a huge battle plan stretched across the ocean with hundredes of ships hitting mulitple targets. and the momment the Japanese realized the Americans were not playing the game the Japanese had expected, the Japanese command froze, there is no other word for it. When they finally settled on a course of action it was too late. Ameircan strike gorups found the main Japanese fleet and inflicted crippling wounds on Japan's navy. Japanese aviators were well trained ofr particular jobs-such as the Pearl Harbor bombing where exactly to go, but they lacked the training and inclanation to think on their feet. The adapatability was one of the things which led to the American victory. |
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Aug 10 2006, 12:59 PM
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#28
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
If you have single-branchers, consider making a simple mission with low pay where the Johnson hands them a mostly-made multi-branched plan.
Of course, before that, make sure your runs support branching. Single-branchers (except for the most outlandishly overconfident) are primarily caused by "invisible railroad" runs. ~J |
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Aug 10 2006, 01:09 PM
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#29
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
My thoughts exactly, Rat.
Same here. Mainly because my Players don't play, nor are themselves, idiots. |
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Aug 10 2006, 01:33 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 26-July 06 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 8,965 |
I'm thankful...most of the players I deal with go this route.
1. Establish general plan. This is usually the sneaky stealthy in-and-out-with-no-witnesses kill the man with monowire garrottes or an organic toxin that's difficult to trace. 2. Establish the shit-hit-the-fan-plan. Which, in general, involves blasting their way out of wherever they snuck in to and leaving no witnesses. At any point during 1, any of the team can give a codeword, and then it turns into a bloodbath. Not too violent, but most of my players are intelligent enough to know that whatever they can devise, the security teams that assisted in the building design would have thought of as well. That, and I play the Hitman series more than they do...and am just better at the sneaky sneaky. |
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Aug 10 2006, 01:44 PM
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#31
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Exactly, overplanning can easily cause indecision. The best plans are flexible objective-based plans because they can survive a little turbulence. Having an infinite number of back-up plans in case your other plans break simply causes too many problems. The better solution is to have a single plan that can survive things that would break other plans. Instead of planning to have the hacker open the door you plan for the door to be breached. You don't specify how to breech the door but you come up with several options, including explosives, hacking, and simply dismantling the maglock. Of all plans, though, the runners should never neglect the escape plan. It is the most important. Know your emergency exists, codewords, and safehouses. |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:07 PM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I was going to take offense, but then I realized you were clearly referring to the fact my character has an Encephalon, effectively making his intelligence 8. Though I don't know if I'd call the difference between a 6 and an 8 "dramatic"... ;) |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:11 PM
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#33
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Keep in mind how coarse the SR-scale is. I'd call a 6-8 difference huge myself, as on the (flawed) assumption that the scale is linear it's of the same magnitude as the difference between someone barely capable of taking care of themselves (INT 1) and a normal person (INT 3).
~J |
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Aug 10 2006, 02:36 PM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Mhmm... I guess I'll have to make sure the others are showing proper respect for Glitch's genius-level intelligence, then. They clearly haven't been properly respectful so far. :) To get back on topic... I like planning, in theory. However, in practice, in most RPGs I've played in, the kind of "planning" a lot of people like to do should properly be called "planning based on completely insufficient data". Which means that most of it tends to be a waste of time, if not outright counterproductive. To paraphrase a favorite fictional character (bonus points for anyone who knows which books I'm talking about): "Having no plan is better than having a bad plan. At least without a plan, you might get lucky." I'm no great scientific mind, but I spent enough time working in research that the inability of people to acknowledge the fact that they have insufficient data really drives me up the wall... The only thing worse is the number of people I met (mostly in D&D settings) who'd get annoyed at me for saying so - seemingly thinking that pointing out that we're not planning (when that is what we were supposed to be doing, at the moment) but idly theorizing, was a sign I just wasn't trying to RP, not showing sufficient interest in the "puzzle" before us, or curtailing their ingenuity. :S In practice, what it all comes down to is that I try to keep any plan I come up with to no more than three steps. Of course, that's an arbitrary rule, and sometimes there's a good reason for making things more complicated, but I find that 90% of the time, it's a very good way of making sure I'm not overcomplicating things and setting myself up to fail. |
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Aug 10 2006, 03:40 PM
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#35
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Exactly. This is exactly how a plan should go, and in this case more time spent planning is good. Time spent planning is bad if their plan is hugely complex and entirely linear (like a Rube Goldberg device) that will fail catastrophically if any single step does not work exactly as planned. |
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Aug 10 2006, 05:43 PM
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#36
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Target Group: Members Posts: 7 Joined: 14-April 06 Member No.: 8,465 |
You know I think some things like this can get a bit overplayed. The last run I was in a gun battle I was not in broke out and I said I was running back. After he set up the battle board I was in combat with a doberman,no perception test, no infiltration roll, and NO COVER even though there were tombstones abound. In the example I guess if the character had a low low logic and intution stat I"d do it to them. Sorry for the derail, just had to get that out. |
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Aug 10 2006, 06:04 PM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
My players tend to neglect the get out, get away part. This really bugs me.
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Aug 10 2006, 06:13 PM
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#38
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
That's a real problem then. Unless they think about a get away they should have to deal with pursuit. Not just the corp they hit but also the officers of LS. So if a couple of them have to create new characters because the last ones are doing time, so be it.
sure and normally it wouldn't come up, but if they are going to micromanage every fragging thing, then they deserve it. |
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Aug 10 2006, 06:45 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
On the otherhand, some times those complex plans work out, and are beautiful. Of course, that only happened once in my years of playing SR, but it was still beautiful. I think that run was the least amount of casualties of any run we've had, only the facilities' security rigger died.
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Aug 10 2006, 08:20 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Okay, suddenly I feel very bad about my plans. They typically are variations of "You hold, I punch."
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Aug 10 2006, 08:23 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 165 Joined: 30-September 04 Member No.: 6,715 |
After a GM stiffed me (he had my character bugged for two months, on the basis that (according to the GM) they never cleaned or checked any of their gear), I made up The list. Granted, some of the stuff was taking paranoia to the extremes, but I never managed to get away from all of the problems that came with. Included is a small section dealing with armour/clothing as well as electronics. 2) Armour Before each run in which it is used § Physical examination for holes, rips and tears § Physical examination for bugs § Check Ruethenium is working properly After each run in which it is used § Check for holes, rips and tears, repair if nessecary 3) Electronic gear § Quick on/off test before each run § Check afterwards for damage to casing § Check screws |
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Aug 10 2006, 08:27 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 326 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Vigo (Spanish Kingdom) Member No.: 1,446 |
Actually, the time spent on planning depends usually on the amount of info the players have. So, if you want to kill the Rommel, don't give them time to do legwork. You can't plan much when all you know about the objective is that you have to hit a Yakuza house in Renton in two hours time since meeting the Johnson. Just pack your gear, and get rolling.
Obviously, I don't mean that you have to take away the legwork sequence at all, but do limit a bit their access to info. Make some info unavailable ("I'm sorry, sir, the floorplans of that building were lost during Crash 2.0") or difficult to obtain ("whant those plans, well get inside a hacker and manage to build them yourself by looking thruough the cameras") or expensive ("sure you can get those plans, but are you willing to pay 20k nuyen?"). You get the idea. No info makes planning a hell, and making legwork difficult might even make it more interesting (if done only on counted occasions, surely getting the floorplans of the corner's Stuffer Shack shouldn't require a run itself). Maybe, once they get to do it this way, they find out easier and more flexible ways to plan that don't require as much time. |
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Aug 10 2006, 08:35 PM
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#43
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Conversely, you could have punched him in the nuts for being a douchebag. I mean, really, that pretty much sums up my perspective on planning on my part as a Player and GM (If I planned out every detail of my campaign, I'd still be mapping out the top third of the Arcology after starting ten-eleven months ago): I don't treat my Players/PCs like they're stupid, and they don't treat me the same. I mean, really, is that so hard for some people (GMs, especially) to comprehend? |
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Aug 10 2006, 09:24 PM
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#44
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
While I don't really agree with the sentiment of going out of your way to punish an excessive planner because you don't like the approach, perhaps the best way to get what you want is to put the players on the defensive. Have their apartment broken into and the characters attacked. Stage a hunter-prey game with the characters on the run and having to react to the events that happen rather than knowing what is there and planning how they want things to go. There will naturally occur moments in this where the players do get to stop and plan. Let them a little, but don't give them too long. Above all, do everything you can to make this fun - interesting characters, background colour and comedy trolls. That way, the players will learn to appreciate the gung-ho approach. |
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Aug 10 2006, 09:34 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
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Aug 10 2006, 10:22 PM
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#46
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
That's hilarious.
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Aug 10 2006, 11:14 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 7-February 03 Member No.: 4,025 |
Let me start by saying that other GM's probably see me as the biggest Rommel of the bunch...
For some reason, it really irritates me when the players refer to each game session as a "mission." This implies to me limited thinking that they will simply be here to accomplish an assigned task. Then everyone gets their character sheet out and sits around until Mr. Johnson calls them. Too patterned. In my opinion, more proactive players are actually less likely to get bogged down in planning as they think independantly instead of the stimulus-response routine. In other words, planning is a way to avoid doing. As a GM, I think it's important to let simple plans work at least some of the time. The more twists and snags you throw at the runners, the more likely they'll try to anticipate twists and snags. Like if they study the guard patrol patterns for twenty days, then you send one guard to the bathroom on the day of the run, maybe you've just sent the message that they didn't study the patrol patterns enough. For the sake of an enjoyable game, I think that players need to trust the GM to give them challenges that are appropriate. I also think that legwork should be a little easier that a lot of GM's make it, not necessarily to reduce in-game time, because legwork makes for good roleplaying, but just to yield more results per attempt. Example: "Roll your street etiquette... okay, after a day of looking around you learn that there are two guards on duty. Equipment? Roll again..." = Bad "Roll your street etiquette... okay, after a day of looking around you find yourself in the back room of a orc strip bar sharing nachos with a guy named Beef. Beef says that he's been to the place and can answer your questions, but it'll cost you..." = Better When the players have a clearer idea of what they're facing, they'll prepare with more confidence. I also recommend that the legwork include some suggestions. "Beef points to one photo. He says that receptionist is deep into gambling debts and likely to accept a bribe." And wouldn't a good Mr. Johnson want to arm his team with good ideas? I guess what I'm suggesting is that we may not have to kill Rommel if we placate potential Rommels, or avoid breeding them. |
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Aug 11 2006, 05:06 AM
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#48
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,379 Joined: 16-April 02 From: the LI shadows Member No.: 2,607 |
Uh hey. That should actually be "Montgomerys", not Rommels.
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Aug 11 2006, 05:50 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
One obvious thing that hasn't been mentioned yet :
Maybe your players like long involved planning sessions. Part of the job of the GM is to provide the style of game that the players want to play, rather than thinking up new and creative ways to screw them for not playing the way you want them to. I think it's great to make them flex their playstyle now and then, but overall you have to give them what they like or you'll have an empty table. /off soapbox |
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Aug 11 2006, 06:48 AM
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#50
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,379 Joined: 16-April 02 From: the LI shadows Member No.: 2,607 |
Bravisimo, SSR. 8)
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