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> Making the Grade, Are there any benchmarks for Initiates?
HappyDaze
post Aug 11 2006, 12:30 AM
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While most Attributes and Skills are pretty clear in showing what a given rating equates to, Initiation Grade is a little less clear. I'm curious to know what others rate as the benchmarks of Initiate Grade in their games.

In your game...

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?


Now beyond your own game, what are some example Initiate NPCs from various official sourcebooks and what are their given IGs?
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mfb
post Aug 11 2006, 12:33 AM
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my game is SR3, so take that into account.

veteran corp/gummint security adept/mage would be grade 2-4.

a hotshot corp/gummint research mage would be grade 7-9.

a veteran runner would be grade 4-8.

a non-great would be grade 9+.

a GD or IE would be grade 25+, possibly much higher.

the magically-active Ghosts in Corporate Punishment were all grade 3-4.
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Slithery D
post Aug 11 2006, 01:02 AM
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I think mfb's ranges are pretty good, but recognize there are intiates who want lots of flexible abilities and initiates who just want more power. For some purposes it will be more useful to take six grades of initiation for the metamagical abilities but never raise your Magic anywhere near your increased cap; others may only take two or three but push their Magic to the max.
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knasser
post Aug 11 2006, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (mfb)
my game is SR3, so take that into account.

veteran corp/gummint security adept/mage would be grade 2-4.

a hotshot corp/gummint research mage would be grade 7-9.

a veteran runner would be grade 4-8.

a non-great would be grade 9+.

a GD or IE would be grade 25+, possibly much higher.

the magically-active Ghosts in Corporate Punishment were all grade 3-4.


Wow! Just... wow!

You'd rarely find a wage slave mage with initiate grades in my game. The real head honchos might be Initiate 2, but they'd be more in a supervisory role than running guard duty. I suppose that I just don't see initiation as being part of a career path, I see it as something much deeper that is likely to either occur in the more radical and esoteric magician or to lead a magician to become such.

Initiate grade might more commonly occur in some corporate "shadowrunner", such as a special agent despatched to hunt the players. At any rate, the highest grade corporate mage I've had yet was a grade 3 in just such a role.

Anyway, break down as follows:

"veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?
Non-initiate, but high skills and good spirit support.

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?
Grade 1-2.

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?
Grade 1-2.

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?
Possibly non-initiated or 0-3. 4 for a major player.

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?
God knows. Probably 15.

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?
Don't have them in the game, but a major player could be 4+

Basically, the only characters in the game that will exceed 3 are likely to be big individual players. E.g. the powerful shaman the PCs must seek out, or the dark avenger that is out there somewhere. These guys could be grade 6. That indicates big power. I like it this way, because one of the appeals of Shadowrun to me is that everyone is vulnerable. There are no level 15 fighters. You can create a supremely skilled character with a lot of ware, but he can still be taken down by poor planning or a grunt with a machinegun and some luck. That feels realistic. Once someone hits grade 4-6, I make them more powerful with better planning or greater resources. Lofwyr isn't an invulnerable demi-god in my game. He's deadly because he has the resources of a first world nation to draw on. He can pay your mother to turn you in.

Your game may vary, of course.
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James McMurray
post Aug 11 2006, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze)
What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?[/i]

Why does it matter? They've got "plot power" and can therefor do anything necessary to the story.
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Slithery D
post Aug 11 2006, 04:47 PM
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QUOTE (knasser)
Wow! Just... wow!

You'd rarely find a wage slave mage with initiate grades in my game. The real head honchos might be Initiate 2, but they'd be more in a supervisory role than running guard duty. I suppose that I just don't see initiation as being part of a career path, I see it as something much deeper that is likely to either occur in the more radical and esoteric magician or to lead a magician to become such.

Not realistic - one grade of initiation isn't very expensive in Karma terms. 18 points of Karma to push Magic from 5 to 6, or 11 points of Karma for a grade of group initiation, the social/professional benefits of membership, and a metamagical technique. Many of them like shielding aren't very useful to civvies (or at all at Grade 1), but plenty are useful with Grade 1, and many of those for non combat uses, including in one category or the other Channeling (possesory only), Divining (good for all walks of life), Invoking, Masking, Psychometry, Quickening, etc. Plus metaplanar quests!

So as a cost/benefit analysis, you should see a fair number of moderate karma mages take a grade or two of initiation just for the metamagic that will be more useful than one point of Magic and raising your Banishing skill from 2 to 3.

Then there are the social benefits of being in a group. Not being an initiate past a point in your career should be embarassing to a modern mage. There are initiatory groups for undergraduates learning magic. There are local professional associations. There are local do gooder NGOs that do charity and political advocacy. 11 Karma, 9 with an ordeal, is cheap for that kind of improved access to resources, friends, etc.

Young mages still learning, unsophisticated ones in a slum, dumb ones doing unsophisticated, easy magical security - they probably shouldn't have a grade of initiation. But most mages worth facing off with or negotiation with on a higher than street level shadowrun should. It may not make much a difference if you find a competent Grade 1-2 corporate security mage who has Shielding/Centering, but it makes some, and he really should have it.
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stevebugge
post Aug 11 2006, 04:54 PM
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QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Aug 10 2006, 04:30 PM)
While most Attributes and Skills are pretty clear in showing what a given rating equates to, Initiation Grade is a little less clear.  I'm curious to know what others rate as the benchmarks of Initiate Grade in their games.

In your game...

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?

Mostly non-initiated, maybe a 1 thrown in for a particularly high-sensitivity area.

QUOTE
What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?


Depends on corp and position. 0 for most of them but a lead researcher for a major player may be as high as 4.

QUOTE
What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?


Probably between 0-3. A Prime runner may be 4 or more depending on plot importance

QUOTE
What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?


Depends on age and significance to the story.

QUOTE
What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?


High enough to scare the hell out of a PC

QUOTE
What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?


See answer for Great Dragons

The guys who are likely to be higher grade Initiates are the leaders of magical groups, Insect or Toxic Shamans who are major "bad guys" in a story arc, Enemies.
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Slithery D
post Aug 11 2006, 04:54 PM
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The rarity of high level initiates in knasser's game is also inconsistent with past SR supplements. Tir Nan Og had Grade 8+ magicians (plural) at the head of the various Path of the Wheel iniatory groups, the Black Lodge in Threats had lots of mid to high grade initiates, plenty of published adventures have Grade 4 hit/security mages (albeit named and on specialized teams).

What I would caution against is having a Grade 6 initiate also have a Magic of 12. That will be rare. Initiation for metamagic is one thing; findign the karma to push all of your abilities up through Magic increases is a much taller order. I expect to find brilliant corporate magic researchers who have eight grades of initiation, lots of metamagical techniques, know lots of funky spells, and only have a Magic value of 8-9. The balance between metamagic and power reflected in Magic attribute should depend on a mage's job and whether he needs more subtle abilities or raw power to make sure his spells hit hard the first time and all that stuff.
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James McMurray
post Aug 11 2006, 05:02 PM
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Security mages with useful metamagics (which is almost all of them) should get pay raises, resulting in more sec mages with those abilities.
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Charon
post Aug 11 2006, 05:26 PM
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Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate. It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs. It's kind of like Karate. Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs. It seems obvious to me that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


I could easily design a veteran military mage NPC who has been in various special force unit for years, who has 5 in automatic, 5 of agility and is in top shape but still only has 5 in magic!

---

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?

Probably zero unless by veteran you mean he's part of some elite group.

Then 1-4 depending on how elite this group is. Ghosts, Jaguar Guars etc.

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?

Depends. Really, it's his knowledge skills that would be through the roof. Which in terms of time and dedication should just as hard as initiating. Takes a wee bit of study to get a doctorate, you know. Cuts in the time available for other studies.

Still, initiation 1-2 would be common if only to access metaplanes.

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?

0-2

Given the amount of BP you start with, you could argue the typical starting PC is almost already a veteran (Minus the wisdom, very often ;) )

More than 2 you are Prime runner material, very much amongst the elite of your profession.

---

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?

Depends. They might not even have any if rather young. Don't they have a very high magic rating, initiate or not? Don't have my book. So anyway, I'd go with age. They are very smart, but seems unlikely to seek much instruction as young adults.

They could have 0! And if they are young, they are unlikely to learn grade as fast as the other races IMO. Only the fact that theya re all basically genius allows them to figure much of this stuff on their own.

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?


completely irrelevant unless you positively need to know who would win between Ehran and Harlequin in a magic duel.
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Lebo77
post Aug 11 2006, 05:33 PM
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QUOTE (Charon)
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate. It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs. It's kind of like Karate. Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs. It seems obvious to mey that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


Huh? A mage with a Magic of 1 could go out Inititate. What do you mean by "Talent"?
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Charon
post Aug 11 2006, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE (Lebo77 @ Aug 11 2006, 12:33 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 11 2006, 12:26 PM)
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate.  It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs.   It's kind of like Karate.  Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs.  It seems obvious to mey that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


Huh? A mage with a Magic of 1 could go out Inititate. What do you mean by "Talent"?

Magic 1? When did I say magic 1?

I meant that I believe many mage wouldn't even be able to initite once. Not PC, obviously. They're the protagonist of our story! But the rest opf the mass.

Not everyone is able to becoem a balck belt when trained in a rigorous karate school. It's just not in them
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Lebo77
post Aug 11 2006, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (Charon)
QUOTE (Lebo77 @ Aug 11 2006, 12:33 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 11 2006, 12:26 PM)
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate.  It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs.  It's kind of like Karate.  Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs.  It seems obvious to mey that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


Huh? A mage with a Magic of 1 could go out Inititate. What do you mean by "Talent"?

Magic 1? When did I say magic 1?

I meant that I believe many mage wouldn't even be able to initite once.

I was just useing a magic of 1 as an example of an extremely untalented mage. I am asking for you to define "talent" for this discussion.
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Guest_MK Ultra_*
post Aug 11 2006, 05:41 PM
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With my own champaign in limbo, I have not yet thought about how this will be in SR4, but here is how I handled it in SR3. I guess I´m somewhere between mfb & knasser.

What would a "veteran" corp/government security adept/magician rate for IG?
veteran normaly 0, elite 0-3. but Individuals could be much better. I.e. as per CD, all Aztech Blood Mages would be 8+.

What would a hot-shot corp/government research magician rate for IG?
A bachelor in thaumaturgy would have 0, a master might have 1 or even 2, but often 0 as well, a Dr. would have at least 1, a university professor would normaly have 2+. This was for regular research magicians, hot-shots might have much more, but usually no more then 6 or 7 - 8 or 9 for the real nova-stars (like 1 per AAA nova-stars, though obviously Aztech as well as MCT and Wuxing would have more then one).

What would a "veteran" Runner rate for IG?
One player managed to accumulate 6 grades IIRC, but he played the pc very long and didn´t do much else then initiating. Normaly a veteran runner would still be 0-3. The Uber-Legends of the shadows had 5-7 in my game.

What would a (non-Great) Dragon rate for IG?
I usually gave them (Essence) grades as a default. Not that I ever had to use them, in game, it was just a fluff benchmark.

What would a Great Dragon rate for IG?
12+ but usually they wouldn´t have any hard stats, this would again be just a fluff benchmark.

What would an Immortal Elf rate for IG?
Never had one in my games, never thought much about their grade, probably would have been 8+.
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Charon
post Aug 11 2006, 05:44 PM
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QUOTE
was just useing a magic of 1 as an example of an extremely untalented mage. I am asking for you to define "talent" for this discussion.


I said no PC are concernedby this observation.

But the rest of the world...

Consider sprinting. Consider the ability to sprint 100m in less than 11 second to be initiate 1. And in less than 10s to be initate 5.

Take everyone on this board, train them rigorously. Dope them even.

Not everyone will be able to reach 11s (initiate 1). And probably no one will be able to reach 10s (initiate 5) unless we have some people with some serious natural aptitude for sprinting in the crowd.

Hard work (spending karma and training time in SR) ain't everything. Some people just ain't able to achieve certain things, no matter how much their parents told them otherwise when they were kids.

Once again, I don't consider PCs to be subject to this. But my NPCs? Yes. So initiates aren't that common, and initiate above 5, very, very rare.

Talent = Natural aptitude. Some people just don't have it. They can become very proficient and even great teacher with perfect technical undertsanding of the subject. They just ain't that stellar at it.
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Slithery D
post Aug 11 2006, 05:45 PM
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QUOTE (Lebo77)
QUOTE (Charon @ Aug 11 2006, 12:26 PM)
Any PC with the karma available will be able to initiate.  It'd be frustrating to see your character train a lot and then fail to achieve his initiate grade, wasting his karma (and time).

But it seems to me that this what would happen to a lot NPCs.  It's kind of like Karate.  Not everyone is cut out to reach the 3rd or 4th dan, no matter the amount of work they put into it.

So I wouldn't hand out initiate grade like candy to NPCs.  It seems obvious to mey that many magicians may not have enough talent to even reach level 1, no matter how veteran they are.


Huh? A mage with a Magic of 1 could go out Inititate. What do you mean by "Talent"?

He's using "talent" as a non-game mechanic limit on what the average person can do, even if the rules would allow them. For example - given enough Karma, any schlub shadow runner who starts with bad stats can eventually become an expert at something he sucked at when he was an adult. But you can't do that in real life. So he's hand waiving that most magicians don't have some mental quality necessary to initiate, no matter how much Karma they get, just as most people don't have the necessary ability to (insert here), no matter how hard they practice.

I don't actually buy that, myself.
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James McMurray
post Aug 11 2006, 05:48 PM
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The mages with the ability to hit higher initiate grades would be the ones more likely to be in places the runners will go (high security areas, research labs, etc.), so they might seem more common than they are.

The yardstick I use is "what fits this NPC?" If they're a bit part it doesn't really matter. If they're someone the team is to come into contact with they'll be advanced as far as they need to be to provide the appropriate level of challenge and/or help.
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Lebo77
post Aug 11 2006, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (Slithery D)

He's using "talent" as a non-game mechanic limit on what the average person can do, even if the rules would allow them. For example - given enough Karma, any schlub shadow runner who starts with bad stats can eventually become an expert at something he sucked at when he was an adult. But you can't do that in real life. So he's hand waiving that most magicians don't have some mental quality necessary to initiate, no matter how much Karma they get, just as most people don't have the necessary ability to (insert here), no matter how hard they practice.

I don't actually buy that, myself.

Ahh. Now I understand. I don't buy it either.
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Guest_MK Ultra_*
post Aug 11 2006, 05:52 PM
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I´m with charon on this. Most of my wage-mages in SR3 would be good for whatever they did, but would never initiate.
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Charon
post Aug 11 2006, 05:56 PM
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*shrug*

We ain't all superstars (except in our own mind).

With some hard work almost anybody can become very proficient in any given field. But reach the next level? Dominate your peers?

Nah. It takes real talent (and then still more hard work).

QUOTE
The mages with the ability to hit higher initiate grades would be the ones more likely to be in places the runners will go (high security areas, research labs, etc.), so they might seem more common than they are.


True, but there is a shortage of very talentd people VS all the place you would wish them to be.

Just look at who is administering your countries and companies, wherever you may be living or working ;)

So in the case of a security mage, It's very unlikely to see initiation if he's on sentinel duty even if he's been doing this for 10 years. The guy who comes in with the FRT team to answer an emergency is another story.
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James McMurray
post Aug 11 2006, 06:01 PM
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Hence my second paragraph. If it helps the game to have the main security mage be an initiate he will be one to some extent. If the game is better served by having only the HTR team iniate, then only they'll have done it.

In all walks of life you have people that have more or less ability than their position would indicate. Thus it's possible to fit almost any level of training into almost any role, as long as it's done sparingly. That wage mage might be working his job just so he can put food on the table, while his hobby is finding higher metaplanes and learning everything he can about metamagics. Likewise that HTR mage might be completely worthless, only in his position because he's the security chief's idiot brother and the hope is that he'll respond to a call and get splattered.
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SL James
post Aug 11 2006, 06:02 PM
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QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 11 2006, 10:33 AM)
Basically, the only characters in the game that will exceed 3 are likely to be big individual players.

Wow. I'd hate to play a mage or an adept in your games.
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mfb
post Aug 11 2006, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (Charon)
With some hard work almost anybody can become very proficient in any given field. But reach the next level? Dominate your peers?

well, look at the question. he's asking about veteran types, not everyday wagemages.
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Geekkake
post Aug 11 2006, 06:04 PM
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QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (knasser @ Aug 11 2006, 10:33 AM)
Basically, the only characters in the game that will exceed 3 are likely to be big individual players.

I'd hate to play a mage or an adept in your games. I mean, hell, adepts would get kicked right in the nuts without getting Initiation over time.

I believe the discussion centered around NPCs, not PCs. Consequently, your mage or adept wouldn't necessarily be affected by that scale.
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Charon
post Aug 11 2006, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 11 2006, 01:03 PM)
QUOTE (Charon)
With some hard work almost anybody can become very proficient in any given field. But reach the next level? Dominate your peers?

well, look at the question. he's asking about veteran types, not everyday wagemages.

Veteran doesn't mean you're that good. It's just means you have been at it for a long time. You are experienced.

It's not rare to see veterans dominated by young talented upstart, in any field.

QUOTE (James McMurray)
Hence my second paragraph. If it helps the game to have the main security mage be an initiate he will be one to some extent. If the game is better served by having only the HTR team iniate, then only they'll have done it.


Your second paragraph implied that the guards would be custom built to match the PC.

I don't quite work that way. Any given target has the same level of security throughout the campaig, no matter the skill level of the PCs. It's just that if they become better, they'll be assigned tougher target. But if for some unforessen reasons, as part of their plans, they make a move against a lesser target, the security is what it should be for that particular target. Easy for them. And if for some reason they attack a tougher target than they were inititally assigned to do because of some stupid plan, they will get mowed down. But since the mission is custome built for their level, this is usally not an issue.

Bottom line, typically, security mage aren't initiate in my campaign. If they were to become initiate, they'd be transfered to somemore proactive elite unit. And only in really important facilities would the occasional initiate be put there as a sentinel. The kind of thing that if the hacker lift the dossier of the security mage, he'll excalim : 'Why the hell is this guy on sentinel duty?!' and discover there is more than meets the eye.

Because if I give tough security to a facility, there's always a reason for it, it's not just so the encounter will be challenging.

Note that tailoring encounters to PC is exactly what I do when I DM D&D. It's just a matter of taste for any given genre.
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