 Street Magic: Quake Spirit Power, Have they lost their minds?! |
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 Aug 13 2006, 07:37 AM
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#101
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059  |
Can we all agree that earth spirits were already the worst and the quake power (which I think is simultaneously lame in effects and supersized in duration and area) just makes it worse? Dirty, clumsy, filthy things. The best new traditions are the Aztec, Norse, Shinto, and Voodoo. I just wish Chaos Mages swapped Earth for Task or Guidance and I'd be happy.
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Aug 13 2006, 07:41 AM
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#102
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Well, what do you think of the Storm power? Earthquake is just a earth version of that.
Oh, and I love the Aztec. Go blood mages! |
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Aug 13 2006, 07:45 AM
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#103
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Uh... it doesn't correspond to the Richter Scale at all. It corresponds to the MMI, which is a measurement of Intensity. But even then it is up-shifted (because who wants a couple of results that people don't even notice?) The Richter Scale is a measurement of the total amount of energy released by an earthquake at its source. The Modified Mercali Indexis a measurement of how much the ground is actually moving, which is variable depending upon the ground that the energy of the quake is actually moving through. Effects like "top heavy furniture falls" correspond to the earthquake's intensity, not its magnitude. So if it's very similar to the MMI, why would people who understand earthquake magnitude be confused that it was perhaps supposed to correspond 1:1 with the Richter? It's like if Shadowrun had a rule for radiation exposure that referred to "dosage" and the hits roughly corresponded to Sieverts and then people started complaing that people who knew what they were talking about knew that dosage refferred to Rads. -Frank |
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Aug 13 2006, 07:48 AM
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#104
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Well, dosage can also refer to a lot of other things when used in that way. Dosage doesn't have quite the connection to a single topic in any area in the common conception, while magnitude does. It's more like using watts to refer to the amount of electricity-carrying wires in a building.
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Aug 13 2006, 10:10 AM
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#105
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Reported Problem--
Proposed Solution-- On the first errata, alter to read as follows:
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Aug 13 2006, 02:04 PM
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#106
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
The problem is that there aren't multiple interpretations. Is it possible that some people will stop read and get confused? Yep. Another word might avoid that, but you can't really fault someone for giving all the information and then it being ignored. There is a table that is very descriptive of what happens, which according to the examples posted here do not matcht he richter scale. Using knasser's post on the first page: Magnitude 2 on the Richter scale goes unnoticed. Magnitude 2 on the Mercalli scale goes unnoticed except by some sleepers. Magnitude 2 on the SM scale knocks things over and closes windows. Magnitude 4 on the richter scale shakes things, makes rattling noises, and is very unlikely to cause significant damage. Magnitude 4 on the Mercalli scale shakes things and closes windows. Magnitude 4 on the SM scale jams doors, causes driving tests, and damages buildings. It seems pretty clear from those two examples that the SM scale and Richter scale are not the same. If someone wants to not read the rules and then argue about how the rules work no amount of wording changes will fix that mentality. |
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Aug 13 2006, 02:46 PM
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#107
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I'm sorry, but this is an inane argument trying to distract from a lack of reading comprehension. If you ignore the full context of the sentence, you may be confused, sure. But come on!
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Aug 13 2006, 04:19 PM
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#108
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,589 Joined: 28-November 05 Member No.: 8,019 |
"Do I get experience for all the people killed? Do I? Do I?"
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Aug 13 2006, 04:23 PM
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#109
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Yes, thus activating your continegent Teleport Intergenre spell and dropping you soundly in the midst of a game that uses experience points.
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Aug 13 2006, 06:25 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
But you can fault someone for not bothering to take into consideration all of the information available.
Well, here's where that argument falls apart:
Okay, I'm sorry, but you have a slight problem: It's not a separate scale, but a modification of an already-existing scale. Add to that the simple confusion that using the word magnitude, which is from a different scale of earthquake measurement, and using it to describe the effects of the earthquake power to an audience that, if we go from the "people are stupid" angle that the author did when making said scale, are mostly fed their knowledge about earthquakes by popular media. The problem with the "people are stupid" angle for this is the fact that most people think they know about earthquakes and would automatically assume their knowledge is enough. Even if they don't assume that, a brief browsing of the top options of that scale would pretty much assure them of it. Thus, the reason why some of us have a problem is the fact we don't want FanPro deciding to rewrite the entire power later on just because the author didn't assume people are really that stupid. And, unfortunately for the author, the scale is similar enough to Richter upshifted early on to support such an idiotic conclusion. |
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Aug 13 2006, 06:40 PM
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#111
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You meant the guy that ignores the reference to the table?
I don't really think that's the angle the author was taking. "People are stupid" was posted by SLJames, who, as far as I know, is not the author. Rather, he's a bitter non SR4 player who revels in posting inflammatory comments. His comment was a response to Frank Trollman: "people don't know earthquakes." That's quite a leap from "don't know earthquakes" to "FanPro thinks we're stupid." Rather, I think they assumed that if they put a link to a table right there in the sentence describing the effects of the power, people would be smart enough to look at that table when trying to determine the effects of the power. I doubt there's any need to completely rewrite the power, or even change it at all. Worst case scenario they change the word magnitude to something similar but less connected to other earthquake scales to appease the people that can't be bothered to read a table. |
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Aug 13 2006, 06:54 PM
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#112
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
/me gives James a cookie.
Actually, to be honest, his entire post kinda said that, only not in as direct a way as SL decided to. But, that's how I read it. And, yes, he did take that angle... The fact he's right in taking it is another discussion entirely.
Which is exactly kinda what the whole argument is over to begin with. I'm perfectly happy to check the table. Hell, what do I really know about earthquakes? I bet I could post what I know about earthquakes and get ten corrections, as well as information about which scales the corrections respond to and, if I ask, who created the scales, how they created them, etc. And that's kinda why I'm here. Now, here's the problem: How many players out there actually bother to look up anything related to earthquakes? Or have anyone in their group who even knows that the Richter scale was named after a person? Better yet, how many of them have seen a movie with an earthquake in it and assume they know something about earthquakes? All I'm suggesting is change "magnitude" to "power" and leaving it go at that. You end up with a word that is, in the common mind, directly connected with earthquakes and all of the scales of measuring them without allowing some random people who never even bother to come onto a web forum screw up because they don't check the chart and deciding to whine to FanPro about it. |
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Aug 13 2006, 07:02 PM
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#113
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Understandable. I take a more "lay in the bed you made" approach. If they couldn't be bothered to check the table, anything that happens because of that is their own fault. :)
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Aug 13 2006, 07:04 PM
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#114
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
Meh. Have to understand. Idiots have numbers, and now SR is popular. That means more idiots than ever are playing it. I just want to kick them in the bud before they have a chance to start sinking their vicious little claws into the game.
Maybe we should sic drop bears on them... |
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Aug 13 2006, 07:08 PM
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#115
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
"Sic drop bears on them?" Some of the most idiotic things ever written on this forum came from the drop bears thread. I'm thinking that might have the opposite affect. :)
I'm all for a game being understandable, but there's a point where you say "ok, the rule is pretty plain, right there in black and white. We can't make you read it, but if you don't you'll get what you get." |
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Aug 13 2006, 08:44 PM
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#116
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,213 Joined: 10-March 02 From: Back from the abyss. Member No.: 2,316 |
Not argueing the Richter the scale/magnitude thing. But I have to agree with popularity comes stupid people. I have seen many games changed because people cant read or take a "poorly" written rule (not saying this one is, I dont really care, I would read the chart even though my gut reaction would say I know what magnitude means) and run the hell out of it. One of the simplest games ever created was Heroclix, I played it often with my brother and friends because most of them didnt have the time or energy (or bank account) to play 40k. You could go into games shops and hear the idiotic arguements about a basic rule, or people crying its cheesey and shouldnt be aloowed. Then a month later Wizkids would post an errata, then making th erule that much more archiac and hard to undcer stand because they added provisions. Then the arguements really would get going. THe rule book went from 15 pages to 15 pages with 40 errata pages because rules were either poorly worded or people tried to reinterupt the rule 9 ways to sunday, even though they seemed pretty explicit. Just look at this board and look at all the arguements (barring this one) about misinteruptation or alternate interuptation of a rule. I play in a LARP on some weekends. The rules are so simple its unbelievible. But the word "into" was used to describe a fireball being thrown into a castle. One person says the fireball loses its area effect abilities when it hits a castle, flying into a castle. Another says it loses its area effect when it flies into a castle because we cant build life size castles and it would be unfare to allow a mage to throw one fireball into a castle and kill half the defenders. They spent a large portion of the game day argueing the deffinition of into and wasted a lot of time, because of poorly written rules. So Im saying, whats the harm in the next printing changing Magnitude to power to keep the confusion down and keep people from ruining the games you love? Sure its easy to say if the morons cant read the full sentence and see that magnitude refers to a handy chart you spent a couple hours making then fuck the idiot. But theyll be the same people writing Rob dozens of poorly writen emails (I bet he gets tons of these doesnt he?) bitching and whinning, hell spend precious time on stupid kids instead of developing books to write erratas and shit like that. Now I have no interest in SR4, as far as Im concerned Fanpro and Wizkids can close shop tomorrow, but I cant stand when people come into a game and dont take the time to read and understand the rules, then cry till my game gets changed to meet their lower level reading skills and spastic brains. |
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Aug 13 2006, 09:06 PM
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#117
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I think this is a non-issue as any ambiguity is given clarification in the very same sentence. However, if there are really people who take issue with the use of the term magnitude, then I will point out that the use of the term is actually correct! Yes - correct! Magnitude is used with the Richter scale. It is also used with the Moment Magnitude scale. It is in fact used with any seismic measurement system that scales logarithmically. Does the SM scale work in this fashion? Seems reasonable, because it is describing an effect that increases consistently across a wide radius, not at a specific point such as does the Mercalli Intensity Scale which has been referenced repeatedly in this thread. It is entirely acceptable to use the term magnitude to refer to the SM scale. The fact that it is their own scale and not the Richter scale or Moment Magnitude scale is perfectly acceptable because no where in the entire PDF is either of these scales mentioned. You are specifically pointed at the scale to which it does refer. Quite honestly, who would have trouble resolving a rules dispute over this when the very sentence in question says "use this chart to determine effects" ? If anyone anywhere is actually that stupid then the problem will solve itself when they try to roll their invoking dice and this distracts them from breathing and they DIE! Maybe the entire rule book should be written in Formal Notation and run through a software analysis tool to check for ambiguity before release. It would be four-hundred pages long and take two-hours of cross-referencing to understand any given power, but hey - it would ensure no "stupid" people ever read the bloody thing. |
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Aug 13 2006, 09:07 PM
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#118
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
same thing happend with magic the gathering... |
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Aug 13 2006, 10:23 PM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Los Coronados | San Ysidro CA Member No.: 106 |
You know, I had a really interesting response to this but just chucked it all. I guess I just personally dislike it when developed mechanics and the creators of said realize the potential/impending degree of confusion they are likely to create and then persist in doing so anyway. :notworthy: |
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Aug 13 2006, 11:47 PM
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#120
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Well, until the publicationof the Guardian Spirit, Earth Spirits were alone in the world of having Guard and Movement as non-optional powers. Remember them? Those are the powers that are actually useful in your day-to-day lives. So much so that I'm sure that companies like Doc Wagon pretty much require you to demonstrate the ability to summon an Earth Spirit or a Guardian Spirit before they'll even hire you as a transport mage. Shipping companies probably feel the same way. I don't know how Hindu magicians even hold down a job. Movement allows a vehicle to get to its destination in a fraction of the time. Guard allows day-to-day operation of unsafe or high-risk machinery without mishap. If your spirits can't reliably do those things, your spirit isn't useful to industry or society. And Earth Spirits have Search too. And the highest carrying capacity. By the standards the people in the world use, they are far and away the best spirit type. Even though I admit that they are a little underpowered for Shadowrunners (mostly because the carrying capacity rules are fubar). -Frank |
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Aug 14 2006, 02:21 AM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
But they're ugly and dirty! Definitely the least classy/sexy spirit type when materialized. A Peterbuilt may be better for a particular job, but I'd still rather have a sports car that looks nice.
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Aug 14 2006, 02:26 AM
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#122
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Well now, that depends on your tradition doesn't it? You could have a tradition where all your earth spirits appear as naked earthy toned women. |
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Aug 14 2006, 02:38 AM
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#123
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
If such a tradition existed, would anyone really be following any others?
:eek: |
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Aug 14 2006, 02:39 AM
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#124
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
I see someone's been leafing through DnD books... |
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Aug 14 2006, 02:40 AM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
You can't leaf through when the pages are stuck together.
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