 Rigger Rules Clarification, Why jump into a drone? |
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 Aug 12 2006, 01:03 PM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 11-April 06 From: Indianapolis Member No.: 8,454  |
I've been looking through the book and it's pretty clear that, once again, the rigger is the b@st@rd child of Shadowrun. They get a lousy *2 pages* of space to explain their rules?? Rigger should get more respect.
Anyway...after reading the rules and trying to cross-reference references: 1) What are the benefits of "jumping into" a drone and fully rigging it via full-VR? It seems to me that it's more detrimental for these reasons: Once in full-VR they can take damage (when issuing commands or remoting they don't), and 2) when rigging you use the Riggers skills and attributes (when issuing commands or remoting you use Pilot + autosoft/program). Why would I want to take damage while only controlling ONE drone and not be able to issue commands or remote any other drones that have a Pilot and Autosoft/Program ratings of 5 or 6? 3) Also...am I correct in reading that the Control Rig cyberware is only good for +2 on Vehicle skill tests? Nothing else? You don't need it to "jump into" drones? 4) If I'm missing something in the rules (or further discussed in a different forum) will someone PLEASE make me aware of it? I really like Riggers and their superior versatility. It seems to me that a Rigger doesn't need to get any cyberware other than a datajack and the best plan would be to remote control, or issue commands to his drone army and he is effectively a HUGE force multiplier. 5) And another thing, since I've already rambled on: What's the difference between Issuing Commands and Remote Controlling a drone? Thanks, all! -Steve |
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Aug 12 2006, 04:00 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 502 Joined: 14-May 03 From: Detroit, Michigan Member No.: 4,583 |
Well if a rigger when jumped in a drone uses his initiative which at hot sim VR is
Response + Intuition + 1 ( and an additional +1 if you're running a reality filter program ) compared to the drone's Pilot (limited by system) + Response Generally a rigger's response is higher on his commlink than his drone. ( Unless the rigger is swimming in nuyen and can afford to upgrade all his drones ) In addition if you look in the gear section there isn't a single drone in there with a pilot higher than 3 ( In fact they're all 3 ) while riggers tend to have high intuitions. You can upgrade but it gets expensive fast. Remember you can't just upgrade the pilot program. You need to upgrade the system and response ratings of the drone as well. When you add it all up its a weak rigger and a strong drone for the drone to have the advantage. As a final response note it should be noted that with the standard drone response of 3 you can easily start slowing the drone down by running too many programs. A simple Pilot, Defense, Encryption, Targeting Combo ( bare bones for a combat drone, manuever and clearsight are also nice ) will slow down a drone with a response less than 5. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now let's turn to gunnery and other vehicle tests. For the drone its vehicle program (limited by system) + pilot( almost always 3) For the jumped in runners its Skill + attribute ( generally intuition ) Again unless you've got some milspec drones generally the runner has the edge. For vehicle tests the +2 dice is just icing on the cake. |
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Aug 12 2006, 05:35 PM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21-July 06 Member No.: 8,928 |
This one is indeed confusing, because Issuing Commands doesn't use the Command program but remote control does. Bottom of Page 220 talks about the differences between these two, and rigging. Basically, if you want to control a drone you have 3 options: Full VR - in this case, you become the drone, and control it directly by your actions. Issuing Commands - you tell the drone what to do, and its Pilot program does it. If it's a complicated task, a Pilot + Response test is done by the GM in secret to determine how well it understands the command. Remote Control - in this case, you control it remotely, but directly. Unlike in issuing a command, you are telling it exactly what to do. For vehicles, this takes the form of a Vehicle Skill + Command Program test. Now, Issuing Commands doesn't make full VR useless, because it's often a lot easier to buy yourself some good skills than to buy your drone armies' Response, System, and Pilot up. Being able to remote control effectively, however, can help you alleviate a lot of the risks associated with full VR. What it might come down to is whether or not the GM will let you use extra actions from Wired Reflexes (or whatever else) in the Matrix. If you can get 3 IPs to remotely control your drones, you can be a lot safer than you would be in VR. But if the only way to get those 3 IPs is to go into hot sim VR and drive it like that, you'll probably want to do so. The other concern about the cost of upgrading all your drones' software suites can also be significant, in some cases. |
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Aug 12 2006, 05:43 PM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 11-April 06 From: Indianapolis Member No.: 8,454 |
Okay...thanks for the explanation.
Does anyone know if there is a post in the forum or a website somewhere that compiles all the rules associated with rigging drones? The vast, VAST majority of "The Wireless World" section only concerns itself with hackers and hacking nodes and getting paydata. Admittedly, it's nice to be able to hack other riggers drones, but I'm still new at this and I just want to deal with the drones that I've already got subscribed. I mean, there's one line in the rigger section that says riggers take Stun damage when they're "jumped into" a drone that takes damage (p. 239). Nowhere else have I seen that mentioned. I would think they'd mention that somewhere in the combat rules for taking damage, at least. But, from what I remember of 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ed. of SR...."rules distribution"* is pretty common. If anyone could point me in the direction of a rules compilation, I'd appreciate it. If nobody's seen anything like that...would it be helpful to those Rigger-wannabe's out there? I can try and get something like that started, at least. -Steve |
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Aug 12 2006, 05:49 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
The damage you receive from hot-sim rigging is only ever Stun, so nothing too serious. Cold-sim, iirc, doesn't give damage when the drone is hurt.
Depending on what your rigger is skilled in and what his Physical attributes look like, remote controlling can be the better option. Remote controlling (the Command prograrm) takes a Complex action, though. So jumping in and rigging that way is going to give you more actions to shoot and stuff. |
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Aug 12 2006, 06:00 PM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 11-April 06 From: Indianapolis Member No.: 8,454 |
So this is where the rigger is fully immersed in VR and is ONLY controlling one drone. He can't issue commands to any other drones because his concentration is fully taken.
So in this case the rigger is just sitting somewhere in his meat body (not in VR) and only using AR? Basically, he's sitting in his van with several camera feeds floating in his vision (Image Link). The camera feeds are what his drones are currently seeing. Then using his hands (and AR gloves) he types on the AR keyboard where he wants Drone A and B to go, and tells Drone C to provide covering fire (or would he just use mental commands?). The drones use their software to interpret the commands and execute them (usually using their Pilot/Autosoft/Program ratings of 3 or 4, before it gets prohibitively expensive).
And in this case, the rigger is again sitting in his meat body, with only ONE camera feed floating in his vision and he is concentrating on maneuvering that drone only. In this case, it sounds like during combat the drone still uses its Initiative, but uses the Riggers skills? Or does it still use its Autosofts? In that case the drone is basically used for its Sensors to see what's going on. So, in summary: Full-VR rigging is useful because the rigger will usually have a better Initiative and better skills than the drones Pilot and Autosofts. Fully AR rigging is useful because you can control more drones and mitigate damage, but you're limited in your actions because we have yet to hear from Bull's FAQ whether or not Wired Reflexes allow multiple IPs when using AR. Sound correct? I think so. Thank you all very much for replying. Please continue to tell me if I'm wrong. -Steve |
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Aug 12 2006, 06:11 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Everything you said, ApexHentz, except it is important to note that your Rigger here:
....doesn't have to use AR gloves or Image link. He can simply get a sim-sense feed via DNI. Completely hands free. |
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Aug 12 2006, 06:11 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
This is incorrect. To quote page 214 of the core rules: "Pilot is used in place of System for vehicles, drones, and agents, but otherwise has the same function as System." In drones, Pilot is not limited by system, as Drones don't "have" a system. Drones have Pilot [B]instead of System. Thus, Pilot is used to determine how many programs bog down the drone's response, not System. |
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Aug 12 2006, 07:44 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 169 Joined: 13-December 05 From: Portland, OR Member No.: 8,070 |
Apex: Also, it's important to realize that being in Full VR does not necessitate being in a drone. Full VR is basically you jacked completely into the matrix. While in full VR, you can of course jump into full control of a drone, but you don't HAVE to if you wish to remain in full VR.
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Aug 12 2006, 10:18 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
The rigger rules are incomplete, inconsistent and therefore basically crap.
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Aug 12 2006, 10:26 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
They work fine for now, or at least they have for my rigger. Certainly there needs to be more, but that was the intent.
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Aug 12 2006, 11:11 PM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21-July 06 Member No.: 8,928 |
In this case, the rigger isn't neccessarily in VR, though he could be. I think in this case, it's operating on the rigger's initiative score. Think of it like this: Issuing Commands means you send a message to the drone. "Go here." or "Shoot at enemies until there are none." or "Shoot this person." or "Jam signals." The drone's Pilot interprets this command, and does it when its turn comes up, continuing to do it if it's a continuous task, to the best of its ability. So, autosofts. Remote Control means that rather than telling the drone to do something, you're doing it. Remotely. You're getting your sensory input from your body as normal. Rather than telling the drone to do something, you're using some sort of virtual interface, and doing it yourself. So you don't say, "Go here," you press the car's virtual gas pedal on your virtual interface and it drives, and then when you release, it's done. This means your skills, but not your physical attributes. Instead, you use your Command program, because that's what's actually doing it. "Jumped in" means you are the drone. You feel the ground under your treads and every bullet that comes in rips your flesh - or feels like it does. You see what it sees and your meat-body is just left behind. |
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Aug 13 2006, 12:18 AM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
reasons to rig a vehicle:
1) control rig = +2 to all vehicle tests. this includes gunnery, for example. 2) cheaper in terms of cash... to get a rating 6 pilot, you need a response 6 drone. with that response 6 drone, you can run 5 programs before slowdown, and autosofts go up to a maximum of 4, remember, and cannot have specialisations. 3) on certain tests, you may very well have up to 20 dice for vehicle tests (or 22 for gunnery) as compared to up to 10 for vehicle tests (12 for gunnery). (that's 9 from attribute, 7 from skill, 2 from specializing, 2 from control rig, and 2 from smartgun for gunnery tests, as compared to 6 from "attribute", 4 from skill, and 2 from smartgun for gunnery tests. this also assumes that hotsim doesn't also give you the +2 bonus to all "matrix actions" which is a rather debated subject here... personally, i say yes). even if you aren't totally maxed out, i would say it's fairly common for a rigger to have 7-8 reaction (for driving) or agility (for gunnery) (possibly even a 10 agility for elves if they want it enough), and 5 skill, which still leaves you at 17-18 for vehicle tests, or 19-20 if you assume hotsim bonus counts. as compared to remote controlling, you can remote control for (6 program + 7 skill + 2 specialization) 15 dice, which is still a 5 dice difference... still quite an improvement. 4) multitasking. you can have a dodge skill, a gunnery skill, a vehicle skill, perception, ECM, and so forth running all at once no problem. a drone will run into problems rather quick. and this assumes you don't allow other autosofts that you might want (let's face it, more will be added in expansions, but even now it's not hard to figure what some autosofts might include). 5) whether or not hotsim bonus counts, you still get the reduced threshold on vehicle tests for jumping in. that's not such a bad deal, you know. 6) perception. especially as it stands now, drones are not very perceptive... up to 7 dice on sensor tests. i won't bother going into details of just how much better a rigger can do, but rest assured it's quite a bit. i'm sure there's other reasons too, but that's what i came up with off the top of my head. [edit] egad! just tried to read my own post and decided it was desparately in need of lines in between each point... my brain hurts =P ]/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Aug 13 2006, 03:06 AM |
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Aug 13 2006, 12:22 AM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
I would allow the +2 dice only for vehicle skill skill tests.
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Aug 13 2006, 10:03 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 11-April 06 From: Indianapolis Member No.: 8,454 |
Thanks to everyone for chiming in! I really appreciate it, and have a much better understanding of the rules.
Something I must have missed, though: Where in the book (or anywhere) is a list of a drones Response attribute? It says in the book that the Pilot program is the drones version of the System attribute. And System/Pilot is limited by Response and that the number of programs running is limited by Response. But I haven't seen where Response is listed, or even hinted at. Any ideas? -Steve |
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Aug 13 2006, 10:14 PM
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#16
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Check the Device Rating table on p.214. There's a listing for drones on that table, and the more fun drones count as either security vehicles or military vehicles. |
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Aug 13 2006, 10:24 PM
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#17
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
when it comes to the response/system/signal/firewall ratings, you can probably assume that if one isnt listed specificaly then its either the same as whatever limits it. or if the limit isnt listed, that its the same as whatever it limits and therefor the listed rating is maxed out.
thats basicly what the "device rating" bit on page 213 of SR4 talks about as a rule of thumb. sure it creates some artifacts (like giving that credstick a signal and computing power on par with your avarage consumer comlink). but i find it better then assuming that if its not listed, its equal to zero... |
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Aug 13 2006, 10:35 PM
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#18
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
on par with a cellphone tower hooked up to a bleeding edge top-of-the-line workstation node. There, fixed that for you. :D |
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Aug 13 2006, 10:45 PM
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#19
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
har har, very funny...
or did i remeber the rating of a credstick wrong? i have it pegged as a rating 3 device... |
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Aug 13 2006, 11:11 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
no,it is 6
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Aug 14 2006, 12:25 AM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 12 Joined: 11-April 06 From: Indianapolis Member No.: 8,454 |
I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb, hob. I kinda like that. Then all standard drones in the book are Pilot and Response level 3 off the shelf. Now...another question would be: if a Rigger wants to upgrade either Pilot or Response...would he have to upgrade them individually? Or just upgrade Pilot and then by default Response is upgraded as well. Things that make you go, "Hmmmm..."
-Steve |
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Aug 14 2006, 12:36 AM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 21-July 06 Member No.: 8,928 |
I've been playing my rigger where you have to upgrade the Response, because while having it come standard at 3 is consistent with the device rating table, there are rules for upgrading Response, too, and you're looking at a software upgrade vs. a hardware upgrade. Anyway, Response is easy to improve yourself, compared to Pilot: a Hardware extended test with an interval of 1 day instead of a Software extended test with an interval in the months. It takes a few days downtime, but you save half the cost of the upgrade.
Actually, I hadn't noticed that System = Pilot bit in the book before. I was waiting for more money so I could buy Pilot up without it being limited back down, so that, in turn, I can get some better autosofts, but that'll be a little cheaper now. |
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Aug 14 2006, 12:38 AM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
you would have to upgrade the response, then the pilot rating of course. why would upgrading the OS (or part of the OS) of a device suddenly increase the device's hardware?
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Aug 14 2006, 01:29 AM
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#24
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
true, the rule of thumb only works for pre statted items. ones your into upgrading, unless there is a single rating number of the entire device, your looking at upgrading each individual part.
btw, the rule of thumb falls flat for the signal part ;) signal isnt limited by anything :P |
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