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#1
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 ![]() |
Street Magic pretty clearly bans overlapping wards that share the same area and boundaries, so you can't make intruders face group rules as they attack ten Force 5 wards simultaneously. Good. For those without a certain, uh, magnitude of sneakiness, it also pretty clearly bans putting a small cubic ward into a larger one to get the same teamwork effect for ritual sorcery defense, or just efficiency in creating layered defenses. Is this latter point how everyone else sees it? There is some room for fudge if you consider a wards area of intersection to only include its outer boundary, not its interior volume. If it were just the boundary, you could build a nice Russian nesting doll system of wards.
Let's assume worst case. What's the most efficient layered ward blueprint if you have to line them up side by side and want to force anyone to go through two wards to reach something in the middle? My interpretation of the "no overly complex shapes" rule is that a ward can be any convex shape. In a skyscraper that would require at least six wards - three for the sides (most people would probably use four, though, for a rectangular shape), one for the top and bottom, and one in the middle. That's a lot of wards, but I suppose it will still be worth it in a real corporate astral zero zone. As far as the specialized wards go, I'm glad charged wards provide a reason for taking Reflecting. I still wouldn't do it. And trap wards, like Anchored Foci, provide a reason to take Anchoring and never spend karma actually anchoring a spell. I have the vague feeling some SR3 era specialized wards are missing, but I can't recall what they were. Incidentally, I really liked how they handled biological astral defenses, i.e. ivy and FAB. You can fight your way through it, but it's visible on the physical plane and they can know to call in the astral troopers from off site. None of the weird metaphysical problems from when some of this stuff was first introduced in the old Corp Sec book. I suspect Guardian Vines or their equivalent were in an SR3 book I don't recall, but kudos if they're new. Haven Lily, is especially nice, although I'm not sure that it isn't counterproductive when it comes to astral security against pure surveillance. |
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#2
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 ![]() |
I can say this since I wrote it, but the intent is that you can not nest wards. The first sentence in that subsection says, "wards cannot be layered or overlap in the same area of astral space." A Russian nesting doll security technique would be considered layering. |
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#3
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 ![]() |
Ah, thanks, after reading the section I thought this was possible.
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#4
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 ![]() |
Here's a helpful way to think about it. When a ward is placed, the space inside the ward is "warded." That same volume of space can not be warded a second time. This means there can't be a ward inside a ward, since part of that volume of space would be warded twice. It also means two wards can't intersect and overlap, because again a section of space would be warded twice.
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#5
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 ![]() |
I have a 1 meter by 1 meter floor tile that I want to serve as the physical anchor for a ward. I also want the ward to share it's structure with the floor tile. Am I right in asusming that the minimum volume that could be warded with this floor tile would be cube with a base the shape of the floor tile and extending up from the floor one meter?
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#6
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 ![]() |
If my understanding of this is correct, you could "layer wards" if you can construct wards adjacent to each other so that no one can pass between the two wards. See the follwoing (2-dimesional) example with 8 wards (in 3d you would need 12) where no ward overlaps or "guards" the same space, but to get inside you have to pass at least two wards two times (inside and then out): http://prionic6.de/philipp/layered_wards.png Anyone thinks this should be possible? |
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#7
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 ![]() |
That's correct. |
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#8
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 ![]() |
Looking at that illustration, it looks like it would work. But remember, since none of those wards in that illustration are encasing the entire area, it looks like it would be possible for an astrally projecting magician (or spirit in astral form) to fly over the wards. You could put one domed ward in the center, but then those would still only be passing through one ward. But for dual-natured beings that can't fly, you're right, they'd have to pass through two wards. EDIT: Unless with the "12 wards in 3d" comment, you mean there are adjacent wards acting as a roof. Still, I think flying astral forms would still only be passing through one roof ward. |
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#9
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 95 Joined: 21-June 04 From: Cologne, Germany Member No.: 6,429 ![]() |
I did the picture in two dimensions to illustrate the point... In reality, you would have to have two additional wards for each "layered cube" at the bottom and at the top.
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#10
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 ![]() |
Nah. You just have really, really hostile spirits filling the areas above and below the wards. Anyone who flies in gets mobbed.
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#11
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 ![]() |
Technically, I think something like that could work. Finding proper physical anchors for a set-up like that could be challenging, though.
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#12
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 ![]() |
Is cyberwear acceptable for a physical anchor? Could provide a very interesting twist on the cortex bomb that keeps the salaryman from leaving...
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#13
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 ![]() |
From a thaumaturgic perspective implanted cyberware is a holistic part of an individual and inseperable from the character's living aura. Since living auras can't be used as physical anchors...
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#14
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 ![]() |
Okay. Make it a vest of plastic explosives instead.
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#15
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Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 ![]() |
As long as the vest is fixed in space with relation to the warded area and doesn't change its relative position, then yes.
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#16
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 ![]() |
Well, something simple: Put the salaryman in a chair, set the vest to explode if stands up or moves the chair from that spot, and give him a gun. Make sure to tell him the vest will explode if he shoots you as you hand him the gun.
Poof. Instant ward protector. And it's really cheap and an easy way to dispose of the salaryman who isn't worth the effort of keeping employed. Just make sure to feed and water him. |
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#17
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20-August 06 From: Beantown, USA Member No.: 9,173 ![]() |
You'd also have to have some sort of system to exercise his muscles (so that he can still lift and fire the gun) and remove wastes and wash him (even if the stench isn't a problem, without some form of hygiene the guy will get sick and die which is a waste of resources). Oh, and put some system in place to keep his mind focused and attentive to the situation at hand because otherwise he'll be daydreaming and thus shot repeatedly in the face when the shadowrunners break into the facility. It's an interesting thought, just not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. |
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#18
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 ![]() |
why not just make it a drone? seems a heck of a lot easier and cheaper if you ask me, and if the person is that much superior to a drone's combat capabilities, then clearly you shouldn't be throwing them away so readily, because they've got above average skills. anyways, seems to me that it wouldn't be too hard to make someone go through multiple wards. a PITA, yes, time consuming to make the wards, yes, but for example:
that's two wards, side by side, not overlapping, and not nested. just do that on each side, and you've forced someone to go through two wards. repeat for more wards if you feel the need, and so forth. but like i said, that would be just a little annoying. in any event, IMO if you really want a strong barrier, just make it someone's lodge. as i recall, there is nothing keeping a force 1 magician from making a lodge as strong as he wants other than having the materials and the time. so if you give a mage 10,000 :nuyen: worth of materials, and wait 20 days, you can have a force 20 lodge that will be really hard to break into, without any nesting or overlapping whatsoever =) and of course, technically speaking, there's no rule against nesting or overlapping wards with lodges, mana barriers, etc, so you can always layer those instead ;) |
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#19
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 ![]() |
Actually, it is as simple as I make it out to be. If you put him in that situation, you already stopped caring if he lives or dies. The guy himself has become a waste of resources, and thus if he dies of disease, gets shot by runners, or simply goes boom from leaning back in his chair too much doesn't quite matter. In all cases, you really don't intend him to live that long. |
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#20
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20-August 06 From: Beantown, USA Member No.: 9,173 ![]() |
I honestly think that most corps would look at whatever level of resources they'd already invested in the salaryman and decide that they want to make sure that they get their investment back. I think that there are three reasons they'd do this: 1) They probably won't have enough salarymen they care so little about. If the corp is going to throw lives away that fast, they need to make sure they have enough to replace the ones who die. 2) The sort of person that would order a person into that sort of situation borders on psychopathic disregard for others. The number of people who are that messed in the head that are still functional enough to get into management positions is relatively small. 3) I'm not convinced that the additional overhead of disposing of the bodies and rapid turnover and paying people to clean out the booth after the poor guy is dead wouldn't boost costs high enough that most corps wouldn't consider it a net gain on profits. Regardless, I think most people will agree that even if corps do this, it would be quite rare for the reasons I outlined above. Of course, I figure a stationary implacement with sentry guns that the corp rigger can take over might be a better use of resources. |
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#21
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 ![]() |
Doesn't take that many. Use the people you were going to fire anyway for it. Most companies have enough of those.
You mean, like the heads of Enron, the tobacco companies, the Robber Barrens of the early 1900s, the heads of Walmart... Also, it's not a psychopathic disregard. It's a sociopathic disregard taken to the extreme. There's a very, very important difference between the two. It's also minor, but still there.
As opposed to the cleanup costs of repairing bullet holes, replacing blown-out walls, replacing furniture and weapons destroyed by grenades, and replacing brain-friend riggers that your suggested alternative creates? |
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#22
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 6 Joined: 20-August 06 From: Beantown, USA Member No.: 9,173 ![]() |
For each ward like this you want to put in place, you need 26 people you're already planning on firing a year. Logic follows: a person can survive for about 3 weeks without food. After one maybe two weeks, he'll be so weak from starvation that he won't be able to fire the gun and have a snowball's chance in Hades of hitting anything useful.
There is a very different mindset between "I don't care that my actions have a potentially fatal effect on people I know nothing about" and "I am ordering you Solomon Salaryman to do this thing that is, for all intents and purposes, suicide.
Well, you're still going to have to pay for most of that with your idea, with one major difference - some random salaryman with a pistol has no chance in stopping a determined entry team. The rigger and drones may not have a low chance, but it isn't 0. Corps don't waste resources on projects that have no chance of success. I also think you are overlooking two more factors that make this a bit unreasonable. Who is going to sit in a chair perfectly still for extended periods of time? Also, any person treated like this has a pretty good chance of turning the pistol on themselves to save themselves from starving to death. Functionally, this is not an argument that is even slightly useful for either of us. I say no, you say yes and it's not like we're all that likely to be in a game together. *shrug* On the other hand, I'm perfectly happy to play along as long as you are. |
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#23
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 ![]() |
Part of why I specified you had to feed him. Besides, with the ward setup I was looking at, you only need eight. You use spirits for the other areas.
Not really that different. It depends on the approach. In this case, it is the approach of taken wasted resources and trying to get a last-ditch benefit from them, all the while saving money on more expensive security features. The spirits being used in the other areas are putting the expensive mages you pay to make the wards busy during the times they're not warding. But, to the guy being strapped with explosives, I don't honestly think this issue of semantics matters that much.
A good rigger can have a pretty good chance. You'd be surprised how often I've noticed players not bothering to have their characters check around corners or behind desks. And, depending on the corner or desk, you can hide a massive drone with ease. I wouldn't suggest trying to hide a steel lynx behind a desk, but if the desk is big enough, a doberman is acceptable. Also, I suspect anything guarded using the method I suggested wouldn't exactly be something important. You'd want those people to be out where everyone can see them and can see the penalty, not hidden inside your top-secret labs in the ninety-seventh subbasement. If anything, they'd be there just to annoy runners and give an extremely early warning.
They get fed, watered, and they die if they move from the chair. Anyone with a very strong sense of self-preservation would stick to that chair until their legs rotted off.
To me, it's very useful. I've already refined it from a vague idea using cortex bombs to a complete idea using vests of C4. Now, I'm just seeing how well the idea logically works. Sometimes, you need others to test your ideas against. |
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#24
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 ![]() |
If I was Soloman Salaryman and my corp OBVIOUSLY wants me dead this bad then I have one solution. Assuming that there is no way out alive, I get up and blow this warded room to shit! Screw this corp! They're idiots for giving several kilos of plastic explosives, a gun, and a location that is supposed to be worth protecting to someone they intend to kill. Open that door and wal on out, Soloman. Stick it to the man!
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#25
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 615 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,895 ![]() |
This is sort of the take I put on it. 'layered' wards I allow sort of. Wards can NOT overlap... if the actual sphere/shell touches the contest and one is shattered the other probably survives and heals. HOWEVER. Wards can be layered BUT are sort are generally one/or the other') Say we have a building protected by a Force 2 ward (basically just an alarm and screen from junk). You could then have a force 6 ward over your vault. If just 'walking' around you would still possibly have to walk through 'both' anything trying to hit one or the other would only worry about the strongest. My problem is wards cover the entire area (not surface area), then even if you are INSIDE the ward, the ward would still hamper casting to something else inside the ward. So if the example is
If you were at C and trying to Cast on something at A you would need to bypass the force 2 ward. If you were at C and trying to cast on something at B you would need to bypass the force 4 ward. (not both wards). If you were an astral being, and 'walking around' you and tried to walk to B, you would have to overcome each barrier at the respective time; however, if you were tracking/following a ritual link/etc' to something at B, you would just need to bypass the force 4 ward. To me the above works, keep wards from being 'overpowered' *IMO" but allows for logical layouts where some area might have additional warding, etc. It also solves the problem that if you say area B cant have the seperate ward (since it is in the force 2 ward.... that would imply if you were at A and casting on B the ward would still hamper you (since B is protected by the ward....) Peace (edited to take out a bad quote link and to put /code flags in) |
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