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> The Tir, WTF?
JTNLANGE
post Aug 14 2006, 02:43 PM
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I know I am probably a little late on this, I just got Runners Havens. Is it just me or does no one else catch on that the Princes of tir are gone. OK I know they probably just went underground and will control things from behind the scenes but them abdicating seems like it should be a bigger deal. Who is the new guy in charge. It makes a reference that he is an ork. How is this going to affect Seattle and the shadows there. Also what about The Orange Queen She just gets on the council and now she got nothing out of it. Or did she?
I hope they delve a little into this.

Trevor
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Jrayjoker
post Aug 14 2006, 03:07 PM
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GREAT! Now I have to buy this book. My wife is going to kill me. :(
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emo samurai
post Aug 14 2006, 03:08 PM
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Yeah, this convinced me.

Dude, are you working for FanPro, distributing viral advertising? If so, it worked, and you should get a raise.
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Jrayjoker
post Aug 14 2006, 03:09 PM
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:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
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JTNLANGE
post Aug 14 2006, 03:15 PM
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I wished I worked for them. LOL. I was going over history with a new player and he wants to be a female elf from the Tir and I was going over everything. Well I pick up Runners Havens and going over Seattle stuff and I notice this little blurb about the Tir. Changes a few things in the character background. Just thought it was kinda interesting. Anyone from Fanpro checking this out I take payment in books if that works.LOL


Trevor
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SL James
post Aug 14 2006, 06:22 PM
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Many of us figured that the Tir was FUBAR when System Failure had a more useless than useful plot link where the runners bodyguard Lugh Surehand because a team of Tir Ghosts is hunting his ass down like a dog.

So, yeah, the Tir's messed up. News at 11.
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Slithery D
post Aug 14 2006, 06:40 PM
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2011, to be precise, when the sourcebook that explains it finally comes out.
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Cynic project
post Aug 14 2006, 07:10 PM
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Look they have to kick anything that is near by Seattle in in the nuts so they can make Seattle look so cool. The closer you are to Seattle the more times you will be kicked in the NUTS!
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SL James
post Aug 14 2006, 07:17 PM
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Eh. From the pdf preview of Seattle, if that's the case then it needs more crap around it to be cool.

Of course, there's also the rpg.net review of it which is ... unkind.
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Cynic project
post Aug 14 2006, 07:21 PM
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Just look at Seattle. Like people go to extream messures to get a hold of a city that in the realw orld isn't even the thrid largest city on it's coast line...
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JongWK
post Aug 14 2006, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (SL James)
Of course, there's also the rpg.net review of it which is ... unkind.

You will excuse me if I take Cain's review with a grain of salt. Maybe two.
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mfb
post Aug 14 2006, 08:00 PM
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why? it was a pretty positive review, overall.
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JongWK
post Aug 14 2006, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 14 2006, 05:00 PM)
why? it was a pretty positive review, overall.

It's not about a positive or negative review. I don't mind critical reviews--there's a useful nugget of truth in them usually. In this case, though, my past experience with the reviewer leads me to think he might be too attached to previous editions to be fair with the new books.
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SL James
post Aug 14 2006, 08:06 PM
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I'd say he makes a pretty good point from what I've read.
QUOTE (RH @ 136)
So what makes a “runner haven?” Whether it’s the crossroad City on the Sound, the teeming plascrete jungle of Hong Kong, the vice-riddled bedlam of Caracas, or the bombed-out backstreets of Istanbul, the most obvious factor is that all such sprawls are intrigue-laden fl ashpoints for the corporate, criminal, magical, and political factions of the Sixth World—with none being dominant.

Ooh. Makes me want to run in Seattle.

That's why any setting I've ever wanted to write about was specific to places where I've actually lived for a while.

QUOTE (JongWK)
QUOTE (mfb @ Aug 14 2006, 05:00 PM)
why? it was a pretty positive review, overall.

It's not about a positive or negative review. I don't mind critical reviews--there's a useful nugget of truth in them usually. In this case, though, my past experience with the reviewer leads me to think he might be too attached to previous editions to be fair with the new books.

Well, considering that he has high praises for most of the book regardless of its edition, I think you're assuming something that's not there.

Or it could be sour grapes because Seattle was the one setting he didn't seem eager to gush over.

*shrugs*
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Stormdrake
post Aug 15 2006, 01:22 AM
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I read this a little while ago and had the same response as the original poster. Having the Tir princes abdicate is wrong. Such an event should have been much bigger, possibly a campaign book, of its own. I told my players that I was ignoring that part of the book as it did not match with the rest of the Shadowrun world we had become accustomed too.
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SL James
post Aug 15 2006, 01:39 AM
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No shit.
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FrankTrollman
post Aug 15 2006, 02:12 AM
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What's so weird? The Tir Princes were just extremely powerful magicians from before the invention of cell phones or soap. That's good and everything, but it's not enough to run a country in the 2070s.

One guy with a laser and you're down one prince. Honestly, the entire council could get "removed" in an afternoon at any time. If the early 21st century has taght us anything, it's that any government dependent upon a single individual can be toppled and gone in two weeks. This isn't the fucking iron age, being a personal bad ass doesn't give your country any resiliency at all.

The only reason that nations and corps aren't overthrown constantly is that they have depth. If you kill George Bush, Dick Cheney takes his place that same day and nothing changes. As soon as someone noticed that Lugh Surehand was not replaceable, his entire nation went down as soon as it was convenient.

That's life in the modern world. An individual who doesn't represent a virtually limitless pool of interested replacements is just that - an individual. And individuals aren't worth much no matter how powerful they are.

It's not a big campaign, it's not even a major change. You cap a couple of princes and send the rest a nice email about how you know where they keep their socks and how to kill their imortal fannies - and they'll leave. It really is that simple.

-Frank
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Jaid
post Aug 15 2006, 02:57 AM
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i dunno about that. from what i recall, immortal elves have the plot power of "i win".

now, if the SR rule of thumb wasn't that IEs have effectively unlimited power, then sure i could agree that you could threaten them. but frankly, with the kind of resources these people have, i just don't see threatening them to be a realistic possibility.

unless, of course, a great dragon did it. in which case i guess i can agree it's possible.
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SL James
post Aug 15 2006, 04:05 AM
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QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
It's not a big campaign, it's not even a major change. You cap a couple of princes and send the rest a nice email about how you know where they keep their socks and how to kill their imortal fannies - and they'll leave. It really is that simple.

See this? This is why I have no respect for the current crop of SR authors.

QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 14 2006, 08:57 PM)
i dunno about that. from what i recall, immortal elves have the plot power of "i win".

Pretty much.

And I'm sorry if no author had the sense to see that the Tir could function as a magic-based economy. Well, one did. But he died and somehow he is both the greatest thing ever for SR, and completely batshit insane and/or stupid.
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Slithery D
post Aug 15 2006, 06:00 AM
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QUOTE (Jaid @ Aug 14 2006, 09:57 PM)
i dunno about that. from what i recall, immortal elves have the plot power of "i win".

now, if the SR rule of thumb wasn't that IEs have effectively unlimited power, then sure i could agree that you could threaten them. but frankly, with the kind of resources these people have, i just don't see threatening them to be a realistic possibility.

unless, of course, a great dragon did it. in which case i guess i can agree it's possible.

I'll agree all past canon says they could slaughter any of their subjects they could get their hands on. But what would that accomplish? They don't want to be slave masters running around putting down rebellions, they want to guide and control a society of millions. That only works as long as everyone more or less agrees to play by your rules or you've got the solid backing of a minority with the majority of firepower and a willingness to use it.

The source material gave us a few points of increasing tension in the Tir timeline. There was minor unrest in Tir Tairngire; paranoid police state in Dunkelzahn; open and growing rebellion in SoNA. That's the society as a whole. As far as the princes themselves, they lost in succession Ehran, Oakforest, and Lofwyr, showing some serious lack of internal cohesion and joint purposes.

An overthrow of the autocracy isn't that unbelievable from those facts unless you assume the Princes wanted to and could have set up concentration camps and mass slaughter. And then the Tir becomes an elven third world shit hole. What price power then when you've got all of the time to disappear, pick a new identity, manipulate things from behind the scenes, or just start over in a new sphere like Ehran apparently did?

I figure a dozen immortal elves can rule a dozen square miles with an iron fist (and Iron Age development), no problem. Anything more requires a bit of cooperation from those they would seek to rule. Now, it may be that the specifics of the transition, when we get them, are entirely retarded. But the general path of the Tir and end result are not at all implausible.

(I'm mystified by the magical economy comment, btw. The main products of mages in Shadowrun are security (from mages!), theft, and magical good for mages. You've got your botique uses like healing and truth detection, but they can't do a damn thing for production of goods and can barely scratch necessary services. Base an economy on what is economically a fairly useless talent that only 1% have? Maybe the Africans can rise from poverty by basing their economy on tallness...)
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FrankTrollman
post Aug 15 2006, 06:12 AM
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Oh it's not that bad. Magical activity can do lots of things for the economy.

Shipping: A spirit provides Movement and Guard. To vehicles. Like trucks. And ships.

Healthcare: Not just Health Spells, let's put in Guard and Movement effects to medical transport!

Hazardous Materials Production: Did I mention Guard? No glitches makes hazmat easy and fun. But now let's toss in LOS psychokinesis.

But you know what? None of that means anything if you don't have a solid real economy. It could be Capitalist, Socialist, or Fascist, but if you don't have a modern economy, your magic isn't worth anything. Movement gets things done in a fraction of the time. Literally a fraction - it multplies with jet turbines. But if you're walking, it's just not even impressive.

And that's the whole magical economy. If you can find something dangerous and valuable to produce (like monofilament wire), that's great. You slap in the Spirit Guard and go. But if you have people cutting down the trees for charcoal, your mighty powers aren't worth anything.

-Frank
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Slithery D
post Aug 15 2006, 06:22 AM
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Weren't there/aren't there going to be special vehicle rules for Movement power so it's an add on bonus? I thought there were, but I can't find them. SR3 or my hallucination?
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FrankTrollman
post Aug 15 2006, 06:37 AM
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SR3 had some complicated rules that made Movement take longer to apply to vehicles. It didn't actually change the overall effect, it just meant that it took several seconds for movement to power up. This could be crucial in motor cycle drag racing. But in overseas transport it meant nothing at all.

In SR4 it was done away with because it confused a lot of people and had almost no impact on how things actually worked.

-Frank
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Cray74
post Aug 15 2006, 01:01 PM
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QUOTE (Stormdrake @ Aug 15 2006, 01:22 AM)
I read this a little while ago and had the same response as the original poster.  Having the Tir princes abdicate is wrong.  Such an event should have been much bigger, possibly a campaign book, of its own.  I told my players that I was ignoring that part of the book as it did not match with the rest of the Shadowrun world we had become accustomed too.


That depends on how much importance you attach to a young nation with blatant racist policies, suicidal economic isolationist policies, and an un-elected junta for leaders. Within the leeway of canon (written from an IC perspective as it is), it's quite easy to say that the difference between Tir and a Third World nation is some good PR and pointy ears.

From that point of view, I don't think it's such a big deal to have Tir's junta abdicate. It's just par for the course.

Of course, if you prefer to put Tir up on a pedestal, YMMV. :)

QUOTE
And I'm sorry if no author had the sense to see that the Tir could function as a magic-based economy.


The other authors probably read the parts of SR that said "magic is rare and 99% of the population can't use it." It's a poor economic policy to base an economy around something that only 1% of the population can utilize. Technology, OTOH, can be taught to anyone.
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Demonseed Elite
post Aug 15 2006, 01:32 PM
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I personally agree that not enough plot development went into the Tir change. I'm not against the Tir Princes being overthrown/abdicating, but the whole development seems like a blur to me too. And sure, these things happen, with totalitarian governments collapsing, but the Tir is a pretty special case in the world of Shadowrun, if only for its proximity to Seattle (though there are certainly more reasons). I would have liked to have a clearer idea what is going on.

Another thing to remember about the Tir economy: as a nuyen currency economy, the Tir has little or no control over its monetary policy (it's likely determined by the Corporate Court/ZOGBank). That means they can't make policy adjustments that most nations today utilize to correct economic problems, like our own U.S. Fed's interest rate adjusments. Meaning that if the Tir's economy was sliding for whatever reason (trade deficits, inflation, unemployment, etc.) they'd be at the mercy of appealing to the CC/ZOG to make adjustments which they probably would be in no rush to do, given the Tir's attitude towards the corps.

This is a major trade-off that the Tir made (as well as most fledgling nations of the Sixth World) in order to get a quick, internationally-recognized, stable economy after forming.
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