 Questions after my 2nd reading of Street Magic, Things that make you go hmmmm. |
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 Aug 16 2006, 07:46 AM
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#1
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Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364  |
Just finished reading through Street Magic cover to cover for a second time, and I have a few questions that I wanted to get feedback from DSF and maybe even a writer or two before I decide how I want to answer these for my own game.
(Some of these I may have asked in other threads, if they've been answered, I must have missed the reply, so forgive me.)
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Aug 16 2006, 01:10 PM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I'll attempt to answer the questions for the section I wrote, though these answers haven't been approved higher up the chain, so they aren't canon yet.
Yep, they would be.
Nope. I'd have to look at Mana Static again, but I doubt you can aspect it.
I think this is my bad. What you wish to do would be acceptable and I'm not sure I was clear on that. The rule about wards extending outwards from the physical anchor is to prevent ultra-thin or tiny wards. As long as the area you are warding is of a decent size (at least 1 cubic meter, I'd say, since that's how much the 1 meter in every direction limitation entails), I feel it is totally fine for one side of the ward to lay flat against the physical anchor.
I'll admit I was intentionally vague with this limitation in order to allow for some flexibility, for examples like you gave. Typically, I'd say the movement restriction is relative to the physical anchor and the warded space. So if a ward is attached to a physical anchor of a statue within a warded office in a skyscraper that sways a few feet in the wind, that is fine, because the statue is not actually moving within the warded space. But if the janitorial crew came in, lifted up the statue and moved it over to another room, then the ward would collapse, because the physical anchor has moved in relation to the warded space. |
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Aug 16 2006, 01:27 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Does this mean you can actually ward cars when you put an anchor in it?
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Aug 16 2006, 01:30 PM
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#4
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
An ocular drone has two functions – one as an implant and another as a remote controlled drone. In the former it works like any other cybereye and having been paid with Essence works as normal. However, when used as a drone it requires a commlink /wireless interface and hence no longer provides the LOS benefit (same as any drone).
Basically they impose different limitations on a character. Obviously taking the Adept Quality opens up all the adept powers not just Astral perception (meaning with the others you can never develop them). Picking up the Adept Quality makes sense if you intend to explore the options all the other adept powers provide. Astral Sight provides a limited access to the astral plane and no other abilities, additionally in its basic form its easy to lose to Essence loss. Finally the Astral-aspected Magician does not forfeit any of his magical abilities (he can spellcast, conjure and enchant just in a more limited fashion) so while picking this option the character us more versatile than the previous two options, most of his (non-astral) magical abilities are weaker than the average magicians.
As a GM I’d rule no but it is definitely a possibility under the rules.
No. The effects of Cleansing are too temporary to affect long term aspecting through Geomancy. However, if the GM allows it I don’t see why it wouldn’t be possible to use Cleansing to facilitate the Geomantic rituals.
Yes.
That would be telling. ;)
A possessed vessel combines the natural abilities of both spirit and host. As such it shouldn’t affect its perception/senses. Access to AR regardless of whether the spirit is materializing or possessing is pretty much impossible since not only can’t a spirit perceive arrows but it doesn’t understand/comprehend the digital interface/simsense (a side-effect of being dual-natured/astrally percieving since the artificial stimuli have no material component for the astral senses to latch onto).
Yes, yes, and yes respectively.
I’d definitely rule this as mistreatment but ultimately its left up to individual GMs.
A set of services simply means that a character can provide the spirit with a list of services to perform instead of giving commands one at a time. All the rules for standard services apply to Long term Binding.
As written no, there are no limits on spirit powers that can be Endowed. However, I suggest GMs apply whatever restrictions they deem appropriate to avoid abuse – not that I believe this will be an issue. Great Forms with Endowment are risky and expensive to summon and the higher the force of the spirit the more limited the number of services you can count on.
No. Great forms are not part of the spirit types a tradition can conjure, they are enhanced forms of the basic spirit types. (ie. “read spirits his tradition can conjure” as “basic spirit types his tradition can conjure”).
Yes.
Having the character at hand should suffice (if the character is resisting keeping him “at hand” may prove difficult). However, keep in mind a spirit formula need not be obvious or evident.
It would likely dissipate since the only thing keeping it “in” is the Pact.
Yes. Though a GM may decided to be more lenient when it comes to Earth spirits.
Difficult one this, and something we should have foreseen. Mana Static was intended to generate background count where there is none rather than enhance existing BC. Pending an official ruling I’d say that the BC generated by Mana Static is indeed aspected, but is not cumulative with natural background count unless the results exceed the natural/current background count (ie. 3 hits on Mana Static in a Domain of BC 3 have no effect, but 4 hits elevate the Domain’s BC to 4).
It is possible to have adjacent wards, but they may not be nested or overlap. The situation you’re posing above isn’t really an issue unless the rooms are smaller than 2 meters across. The anchor is symbolic and need only be placed somewhere within the ward – a mandala in the middle of the room, an incense burner, or in your case a circle of hermetic warding sigils in the center of the room (the anchor itself) symbolically reinforced by sigils painted on all warded walls.
Movement is of the anchor relative to its original position with regards to the warded space. So if the room/building/warded space were to move the anchor’s relative position need not necessarily change - What Demonseed said.
To be perfectly correct it should read: Note: Insect Shamanism is a Inhabitation Tradition
Nope. The spirit’s Mental and Special Attributes dominate the merge, meaning Resonance does not carry over. I believe this is specifically mentioned in the book.
This is a mistake for future errata. Spells do not allow for the independent targeting of implanted cyberware. Unlike a gun or a piece of gear, there is nothing to target but the individual himself (since he’s paid Essence for the cyber and it is now part of him). |
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Aug 16 2006, 02:57 PM
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#5
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, i keep wondering, can a spirit perform multiple services at the same time? or does asking for a diffrent service end the ongoing one?
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Aug 16 2006, 02:59 PM
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#6
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
No. It's important to remember that you are not actually warding a car, you are warding a volume of space. If a car is sitting in that volume of space when you place the ward, then it is warded. But if the car moves out of that volume of space later, it no longer is. If the car takes the anchor with it when it moves out of that volume of space, the ward collapses. In the building example, the anchor is still sitting in the volume of space, even if the building sways a few feet (note that if the building collapsed, that would be an entirely different story, even if the physical anchor survived the collapse). Similarly, if the anchor were painted on the parking space under the car, and the car drove away, the ward would still be standing on that space. The limitation is designed to have some flexibility, to account for all sorts of things (swaying buildings, earthquakes, a physical anchor tipping over, etc.) but there are no such thing as portable wards in SR4. |
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Aug 16 2006, 03:30 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
OK this promps the following question: "If you are warding a volume of space, and the relationship of the walls of the ward and the anchor are important in they must remain in a fixed relationship to one another for the ward to be maintained, then from what frame of refrence must the movement of the anchor occour to cause the ward to break?" Oprions, one or more of these may cause the ward to fall: 1. From the frame of the anchor, looking at the "walls". - We know this one breaks the ward, with the excepton of movement "within a few centimeters". 2. From the frame of the earth looking at the anchor. - This one is iffy given the building example, as a swing of a few feet (possible on the top floors of very tall structures) is more then "a few centimeters" but the definition of "few" is loose enough to allow it. However, does this make wards on non geosyncronus space habitats impossible (neglecting the mana void, of course)? 3. From the frame of the Sun/Core of the Galaxy/Universe/ect.. - These don't not work since the earth frame is is constant movement. There may be other frames and relationships to consider. In which ones will relitive movement break the ward. |
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Aug 16 2006, 04:44 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Option 1 sounds about right. The anchor and the ward walls share a connection. The anchor can move but walls of a ward can not move. If the anchor's movement is too much, the connection between the anchor and the walls of the ward fail and the ward collapses.
How much can the anchor move before it loses connection with the ward walls? The rules say a few centimeters, but I left it deliberately vague because there are special exceptions where I think a GM should make a call. Such as swaying skyscrapers. Or earthquakes. A mild shaking shouldn't collapse wards throughout a city. If the anchor is a stone and you move the stone from the top of a desk into a drawer, that shouldn't collapse your ward either. If you put the stone in your pocket and walk out of the building, then the ward will collapse. In a magical theory perspective, the strength of the ward and the size of the ward probably determine how much strain it can withstand on changes in the connection between anchor and ward walls. But really, I don't want players and GMs having to perform "magical mechanics" calculus on their wards, so the GM should use their best judgement. The real point behind the limitation is the prevention of portable wards. Ward walls just can't travel around with the anchor, so that eliminates the possibility of the "warded van", an example which has been debated here on Dumpshock before. If the ward and anchor aren't really going anywhere but are moving slightly for some reason, the GM shouldn't really apply this limitation too harshly. |
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Aug 16 2006, 04:49 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
But only option1 can not be it. This would mean you could install wards inside a car. You need at least option2 also. But I get your point.
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Aug 16 2006, 05:00 PM
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#10
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Why were those take out of the game? Warded crates were about the only way of transporting hazardous magical materials and warded vehicles were the only things protecting the average exec from a fire elemental manifesting in his helicopter. |
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Aug 16 2006, 05:02 PM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Thats what I thought, too when first reading the rule. Warded cars were quite common in my games an never a problem. But then I have not thought fully about it and maybe there are reasons against it.
Any comments on that? |
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Aug 16 2006, 05:37 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Magicians just became a lot more effective on big battlefields as tank killers. One service from a fire elemental in tow of an astrally projecting mage to take out a 10M+ nuyen piece of equipment immune to most man portable weapons? Or capture it later by using an air elemental? Sweet deal. And with past indications that tactical military mage support is one per battalion, that's one dude to defend about 40 tanks/APCs. Good luck with that if brigade/division doesn't give you some of their mage corps to play with. As I see it the only serious problem wth movable wards is how you've conceived their metaphysics, not any real game imbalance. You want ward fixed by a combination of their spacial relation to the earth and the anchor, not any walls or other physical structure. Which makes sense, because you can ward open air by putting the anchor on the ground. What, then, is to stop putting a ward on a car that's bigger than the car? Driving it down the street and forcing disruption on spirits/spells/foci? I propose a specialized form of ward that requires some form of metamagic, probably quickening, to attach it a physical enclosure like a car or box. You can then move the ward, but it's confined to the physical dimensions of the car or container, and can't extend outside. You probably also shouldn't be able to combine this Movable ward with other fun effects like Charged or Masking wards. (Edit: Also, maybe limit the ward to protection of the interior so that a powerbolt into a warded car isn't pretty much always wasted.) A bigger problem is that I can't for the life of me find the SR4 rules that attacking or pressing through a ward (successful or not) alerts the wards creator. Did they take this out of SR3? Terrible, if so. I assume I'm just not finding them. Otherwise what's to stop repeated attempts to press through a normal ward until you finally make it? And if that's an option, plain wards of reasonable force are still vulnerable and we're going to see terrorists blowing up semiballistics with near impunity. |
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Aug 16 2006, 06:12 PM
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#13
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
what you just described is a quickened astral armor spell or similar.
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Aug 16 2006, 06:30 PM
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#14
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I see what you're saying. In a way, there is not only a connection between the anchor and the ward walls, but also between the ward walls and astral space. I don't want to say it's between the ward walls and Earth, because that's not really the case. But the ward, once placed, is defined by a certain point in the metaphysical cosmology (how's that for magical gobbledegook!) and can't move.
There are many reasons, most of which I can't even recall off the top of my head, but that came up during SM's development. One example is that because wards can't cover the same space (the layered/overlap restriction) a portable ward would be engaging in astral combat with every other ward it came across. Not to mention engaging in astral combat with every astral form or dual natured creature that it passed through. If you put up a portable ward around a car and made it twice the size of the car, you could play bumper cars with spirits. Which is not really the intent of wards at all. Another example is that portable wards would overlap roles with anchored/quickened armor/barrier spells, which really should be filling the role of protecting movable objects and beings. |
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Aug 16 2006, 06:39 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Nope. Astral armor only protects against astral combat. It doesn't prevent astral entities from passing through or provide defense against spells. It does nothing you need and does something you don't need. Now a quickened mana barrier would work if you let them be mobile, but if you do that you have to let physical barriers be mobile, too. Uh, no. And anyway, a quickened mana barrier is going to be too weak to really keep anything serious out. I suppose you could have a custom spell that makes mana barriers that attach to cars, but at a barrier force of your hits on the spellcasting test, they just aren't useful enough. |
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Aug 16 2006, 06:42 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
Can't move relitive to what? Astral Space? Can you have a ward on a Moon base? (again, neglecting mana void effects) Can you have a ward on an orbiting space station? (again, neglecting mana void effects) Can you build a ward while astraly projecting, and if so what does it use for an anchor? Can you have wards on metaplanes? What woudl be the effect if the anchor for a ward was moved "just a few centimeters" through an astral gateway? Sorry for all the questions, but I have a player who is creating a former MIT&T astral research professor turned shadowrunner. His described goal id to invent a teleport spell. (Yes, he knows he will almost certanly never be successfull. ) |
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Aug 16 2006, 06:51 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
As I stated above, I fail to see how armor spells have any intersection in utility with wards. Even if you permit mana/physical barriers to be mobile, almost no one will have enough spellcasting dice to make them reach a useful enough force to prevent mass terrorist attacks. In my semiballistic example, I suppose you can (very expensively) ward the runways or provide half a dozen guard mages during flights ops and then rule that for some mysterious reason astral fast travel can't be slowed down enough to match speeds in the air. Otherwise you're going to have magical terrorists blowing them up in midair with fire elementals or crashing them into Saeder Krupp HQ with a spirit of man. For instances other than mass transit, I guess not having astral barriers during travel isn't that big a deal. If you can kill a corp exec on a stroll through a park with your elemental, why not while he's in a personal vehicle? You just need to have a tame magician follow you around all of the time. More reason to keep your key people isolated to corp facilities except for the really big guys with really big protection details. |
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Aug 16 2006, 06:54 PM
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#18
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
time to crack open the spell design rules and create some new variants on the armor spells then :P
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Aug 16 2006, 06:54 PM
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#19
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Yes, the 'no layered wards' restriction is something new, too... which made one big ward outside the building and extra ones for sensitive areas are now impossible, too...
Like foki or other dual beings, yes...
Come on... the whole Ward-Chapter looks like you tried to kill any form of creativity: No astral art anymore? Meh. :|
Quickend astral barrierer spells are extremely costly - you can't put those on vehicles except some few... Basically, there are no problems ward has that an astral barrier spell wouldn't. Honestly, all new rules (Immobility, Exclusivity, Geometry) open a big, ugly can of worms. It's cheaper and more secure to let vehicles or buidlings be posessed by spirits, now. |
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Aug 16 2006, 07:17 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
Or useing a task spirit to Possess the aircraft... |
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Aug 16 2006, 08:01 PM
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#21
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I will go out and say that he idea of putting wards fixed in space rather than fixed to objects was a sadly unfortunate idea and I'm sorry it got in there. Anyone even casually familiar with physics will know that there are no fixed locations. The Earth is spinning at 1670 km/hour at the equator and at zero km/h at the rotational pole. Those two points are 10,002 kilometers apart. That means that very roughly, if you ward a block (approximately 100 meters in Chicago), that one end of the ward is moving 16 meters more than the the other end every hour. And that's just from the inescapable rotation of the Earth. Imagine if we consider the fact that the Earth is itself moving through space at a not inconsiderable 107,300 kilometers every hour around the sun, or that the sun itself is hurtling through space around the center of the Galaxy at 6x106-4 times the speed of light and dragging our planet long with it. Furthermore, the ground itself is moving at up to 9 centimeters a year depending upon where you are.
Absolute locations do not exist and asking anything to be based on them is completely inane. It's like requiring all action resolutions to wait up for the results of direct intercession by a powerful god in order to continue. It's impossible to adjudicate, and I don't know why anyone thought it was a good idea. It's not, and I strongly suggest that everyone just ignores that text as a fever dream. -Frank |
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Aug 16 2006, 08:15 PM
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#22
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I agree. I plan to house-rule mobility back into wards. True, one could potentially put a ward larger than a car on a car and drive it around, smashing other wards and astral forms as they go, but that's pretty much exactly the same thing as driving an absurdly oversized vehicle down the street and smashing buildings and people as they go, and for some reason that doesn't seem to be an overwhelming problem. :-)
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Aug 16 2006, 08:17 PM
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#23
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
ugh, physics in a magical discussion, this cant end well no matter what...
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Aug 16 2006, 08:17 PM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Absolute locations do not exist scientifically, but magically is another story. Metaphysical representations of position remain steady regardless of univeral movement. If a cat is sitting on a box then he's sitting on the box.
I personally have no prblems with viewing location that way. Magic is based a lot on perception, and the perception is that there is a fixed world around us and we stand still untill we choose to move or are pushed. |
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Aug 16 2006, 08:18 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
This is why I used the approach of: "What happens if..." |
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