 Questions after my 2nd reading of Street Magic, Things that make you go hmmmm. |
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 Aug 17 2006, 01:31 PM
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#51
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534  |
House rule proposal (or even SM FAQ/ Errata)
Add: Mobile ward A mobile ward needs a 3 dimensional physical representation, like a room, a car, a plain, or even a space station. As with every ward, the 3d represenatiation must allways be at least 1 meter in diameter in every direction (The smallest wardable object being 1mx1mx1m). It traces exactly the inner contours of this representation (though it is able to cope with holes and openings, like open doors and windows, that are smaller than e.g. 20% of the whole surface) and moves with them. The rules for the anchor still apply and when the anchor is mooved with respect to the 3d representation or the 3d representation changes considerably, the ward breakes down. Any thoughts? |
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Aug 17 2006, 02:20 PM
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#52
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Nice. -Frank |
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Aug 17 2006, 03:13 PM
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#53
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I apologize for not getting to a few questions yet, I really need to go back and read the ward section, since I'm working from memory of what I wrote months ago.
You can technically build a ward via astral projection, except for one thing. It's a bit hard to mark the anchor in physical space while you are astrally projecting. But I suppose if you had the anchor set up in advance, you could build the ward purely from the astral. You can build wards in the Metaplanes. Which is another reason to stay clear of pulling physics into ward design, since Earth physics do not necessarily apply in the Metaplanes. Note that you can astrally perceive in the Metaplanes, meaning the Astral Plane stretches there. If the anchor moves a few centimeters into an astral gateway or rift, the ward will collapse. Metaphysically, the anchor has moved far more than a few centimeters. |
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Aug 17 2006, 03:21 PM
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#54
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
We tested an advanced ward option called Threaded Wards (which might eventually see the light of day as a metamagic, who knows?). Threaded wards wove the anchor into the actual physical limits of the ward - meaning you could ward an enclosed space this way the downside being that damaging the physical structure of the anchor (a car, a room, a crate, etc) would damage the ward too. |
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Aug 17 2006, 03:24 PM
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#55
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
OK. This prompts a related question I had been thinking about: Is there "stuff" in the astral plane, and is it solid? If I Drive a 1985 Honda Nighthawk650 motorcycle through an astral gateway... What happens to it? It is clearly not in the real world anymore, it's in astral space. But it's not alive... Does it blink out of existance? I don't think so. If I put down the kickstand and walk away will it be ther when I get back? Can I ride it around untill I run out of gas? What if I bring a gun through? Can I shoot spirits with it? If I brink it BACK through the rift, are there any adverse effects? |
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Aug 17 2006, 03:28 PM
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#56
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Just to note that the metaplanes are not the astral plane. They are other planes of existence. |
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Aug 17 2006, 03:31 PM
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#57
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
I'll have to read the Astral Gateway rules again before I can try to answer that. I know in the case of an astral rift, you don't actually "go" into the rift. The rift just allows mundanes to astrally project. For instance, the people that entered the Watergate Rift caused by Dunkelzahn's assassination still have physical bodies on Earth, comatose and sitting in the Riverside Mental Hospital.
So for an Astral Rift, at least, you can't drive a motorcycle into it. You technically can't even move a ward anchor through it. |
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Aug 17 2006, 03:37 PM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 133 Joined: 8-September 05 Member No.: 7,718 |
Ah. I just reread astral Grateway. No Astral motorcycles. Oh well. It was a fun idea while it lasted. So it looks like there is no way to enter the astral and bring your body along. I thought there used to be in previous editions? I could be wrong. |
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Aug 17 2006, 03:53 PM
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#59
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Actually, Target: Awakened Lands had rules for "astral constructs", which were in essence physical objects that existed on the astral plane. Alchera, a type of Astral Construct landscape, seem to be around SR4 so it would make sense that others are, as well. Howeer, there were never any rules for creating astral constructs. You might be able to stumble across an astral gun, an astral motorcycle, or even as astral skyscraper (the Sears Tower, for example) but you'd never be able to create one of your own unless you got some GM handwave metamagic from an IE. The closest SR canon has come to actually shifting physical matter to the astral plane is Harlequin's and Ehran's apparent teleportation in Harlequin, which some interperate to be a use of the Earthdawn power called Netherwalk. Nothing about that ability was ever clairied except for the explicit statement that the IEs can do whatever they want without any regard for the rules. |
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Aug 17 2006, 04:03 PM
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#60
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Netherwalk was actually limited time astral projection, closest to the adept power in SOTA 64. (ED adepts were basically mystic adepts, with no projection, but then ED astral space was mostly one big mana warp where you really didn't want to be...) The power that let you physically enter astral space was a maximum rank Lightbearer power, which I won't bother to explain. Let's just say - rare.
There was a spell that let you open an astral portal to a prepared location and travel there physically, but not any free point to point travel. |
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Aug 17 2006, 05:46 PM
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#61
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Holy swordfish mustardballs! ALL magicians who aren't TOTALLY green are initiates!? Okay, I need some time to get my head around that. I was thinking initiation was kinda special, something for the big boys. Rather, anyone not initiated is a total n00b! Wow. Is that in Street Magic somewhere? |
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Aug 17 2006, 09:31 PM
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#62
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
As a disclaimer, I haven't done much more then skim Street Magic, so it might already be there, but if its the case that Initiates are that common, are we going to be given an offical BP Cost for being one at Char Gen? *winks*
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Aug 17 2006, 09:44 PM
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#63
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Well it would have to be, unless our only option is to play magicians who've been doing anything for less than a year.
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Aug 17 2006, 10:01 PM
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#64
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
This isn't explicitly stated anywhere in Street Magic, but it is implied. Magicians form magical groups (study circles) in college. Corporations provide their wage mages with initiatory groups to hone their abilities in service of the corp. Shamanic societies gather to benefit their members. Even lone magicians stand to gain more from investing in Initiation than in any other aspect of their ability (at least initially). Given the chance, why wouldn't magicians initiate as soon as possible? Why would initiates be rare? Let's put it this way another way. Let's say you've just created a new shadowrunner mage (Sorcery skill group 4, Conjuring skill group 4, Arcana 3, Magic 5), the character is in his mid- to late twenties, and he's been running the shadows for a while (but not too long). He earns 15 karma over his first 2-3 adventures. What's the first thing he's likely to spend that on? My bet is Initiation (it increases his Magic cap, gives him access to the metaplanes and gives him one of those cool metamagics), and even if it isn't the first thing its likely the second. Why would an experienced wage mage (who doesn't have to worry about running skills), a security mage, or an arcane scholar be any different? Anyone who's practicing magic professionally has something to gain by initiating - and most have less secondary aspects of personal development to invest in than the typical shadowrunner. Inevitably most should initiate. Maybe a year or so on the job might be short for someone in a less demanding field of work (and one subject to less attrition) but a magician must really be off his focus if he doesn't invest in the single most significant way of enhancing his Talent when he can. Note that initiates being more widespread does not mean to say that high-grade initiates are common. Diminishing returns apply here like everywhere else. |
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Aug 17 2006, 10:13 PM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
People without common traditions or are self-taught would likely not have initiated I don't think. Then again, learning to get to the metaplanes and ask spirits for guidance might be a good idea for those who can't afford college or tutors.
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Aug 18 2006, 07:31 AM
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#66
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,498 Joined: 4-August 05 From: ADL Member No.: 7,534 |
Because of the same reason why not all NPCs increase their main profession skill to 5/6 (ultra professionel/World Class) though it only costs so much karma: Because its just the way the distribution goes. As I said in another thread, it is not liable to use karma arguments in discribing the SR world. Karma is a gaming construct only to make advancement possible and should not be used in any reasoning concerning SR society. If you want to justify a lot of initiates , then the only reason can be "because a lot of people initiate". Do not use karma arguments. |
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Aug 18 2006, 07:40 AM
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#67
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Target Group: Members Posts: 81 Joined: 28-June 06 From: Sol System, Earth, Europe, Germany, Saxony Member No.: 8,796 |
acually, the last sentence of the mana barriers chapter (p.185) says so. i just wonder, if pressing throug a barrier counts as "breaking" through it? because IMHO that are two different things. any (official) ideas about that? |
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Aug 18 2006, 08:10 AM
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#68
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I did not mention karma with regards to NPCs, I used karma for an example of natural PC progression in the gameworld to indicate how high a priority initiation represents to a magical character and how fast that it can happen. I'm simply saying that there's no reason why a professional magician NPC wouldn't invest in the development of the single most important aspect of developing their talent after a while plying his trade. ie. There's no reason why the same type of progression doesn't shouldn't apply to NPCs. So the correct answer is "a lot of people initiate" because initiation is a measure of professional and personal advancement in their field (and one recognized by peers), because it expands your basic Talent, and ultimately because it's just so darn useful in any context. Would you expect anything else from a thaumaturgic scholar working on developing new magical techniques? Or a wage mage with access to a corp's magical group? Or a security mage assigned to protect his unit from magical intruders? All of them stand to gain a lot more from initiation than investment (in terms of personal development rather than "karma") in any other single area. I even made allowances for very different time frame for development between a PC runner and an NPC magician, given that a PC will probably quickly initiate after a few runs. Note that I also specifically distinguished initiation from high-grade initiation. |
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Aug 18 2006, 09:33 AM
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#69
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Since I haven't seen much discussion on these since I posted them, I'm going to give these few follow questions I had a post of their own:
When performing Ritual Sorcery, if the Background Count increases in the middle of the ritual, what impacts does it it have? (Also if Great Ritual metamagic is being used at the time) Possessed vessels have a metaphysical blind spot with regards to AR visual overlay (even if that overlay is provided by physical means and not via simsense) since the AR images don't have corresponding auras. Does this blind spot apply if the posessed vessel looks through a pair of low-light or thermographic goggles, or would they be able to actually see those images? Synner, in my questions about Formula Pacts, you said that the spirit formula "need not be obvious or evident." Could you explain that a little more for me? I'm having some trouble understanding what you mean by that, since going by the book, when a character enters a Formula Pact "the character’s aura is visibly tainted by the spirit’s signature." The only think I can figure is that you're implying that Free Spirits only enter in to Formula Pacts with characters who can perform Masking; is this what you were getting at? When a character has summoned a Free Spirit, and is performing the lengthy binding ritual, could a second character who also has control of that Free Spirit's formula interrupt the binding ritual by performing a summoning of their own? For Wards where the Physical Anchor is just an object contained within the warded area, is the "one meter in every direction" minimum size requirement measured from that object's center of mass? |
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Aug 18 2006, 03:51 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Well, it says an attack or an attempt to break through gives warning. We know what an attack is; a "break through" attempt must be pressing through. For wards not to be pretty much useless they either have to give warning or only allow one press through attempt. Otherwise they best even a fairly strong ward can do is slow you down for a few combat turns. |
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Aug 18 2006, 03:55 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
Bioware visibily taints a characters aura. How easy is it to assense? |
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Aug 18 2006, 07:38 PM
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#72
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
4 hits. Point taken, and good analogy. |
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Aug 19 2006, 07:33 AM
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#73
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Yeah, that should work. In the case of large objects, you're going to want to cover more than 1 meter radius from the center of mass, but in that case you won't be running into the problem of attempting to create ultra-thin or tiny wards.
Pressing through does count as an attempt to break through. Fooling a ward would not, though, since the whole idea is that you are spoofing an authorized aura. On Mobile Wards: I've finally gotten a chance to look over a print copy (well, a PDF copy) of this section. I think I definitely wasn't clear enough here, to the point where I was even confusing myself. This is something I'll want to take back to FanPro if there's any sort of official errata, but here's my non-official take for the time being. Wards can be mobile, but not portable. Confused yet? :) In other words, it's all right if the entire warded space moves, but you can't shift an anchor in an attempt to re-locate a ward. For example, you can ward a cabin on a space station hurtling around the Earth. You can ward the cabin on a plane. You can ward a crate travelling on a ship. While all those spaces are moving, there's a fixed and constant definition of the warded space. What you couldn't do is, for example, ward the object in the crate, then open up the crate, take the physical anchor out of the crate and stuff it in your pocket, and attempt to bring the ward with you. You've broken the fixed concept of the warded space. Similarly, while you can ward an airplane using a physical anchor inside it, you can't just ward a bracelet and have a ward bubble following around the person wearing it. |
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Aug 19 2006, 07:40 AM
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#74
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Ah-HA! So you CAN ward a car then! I think this is a great idea, as it adds cheap, persistent protection against magic that otherwise doesn't affect mundanes. It really makes it easier to balance mages, especially now that astrally projecting bodies can read and see normally, among other things. It's my opinion that wards should be getting more and more common as well, as it's the one magical activity that doesn't require any skill whatsoever to use. I envision one of the triumphs of early magicla theory was a recipe for ward-making that any idiot could do with no trainning, rather like a simple recipe. Now, can you ward a suit of armor? :D (I'm voting yes, but that it won't do any good. Remember auras "extend" to include clothing and such objects, so the wearer's aura would extend outside the ward, rendering it ineffective. Still, some mages might take the time to ward their clothing as a fashion statement, or something.) |
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Aug 19 2006, 08:06 AM
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#75
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 750 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,059 |
You don't even need that handwave. 1 meter rule! Well, maybe a troll would be that thick in the chest... |
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