 What's Up with FanPro?, Looking for a rundown of the seminar |
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 Aug 28 2006, 11:55 AM
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#101
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185  |
Technomancers are here to stay and will continue to be an integral part of the SR4 setting. FanPro has no intention of removing them or reducing their role in the setting. Furthermore, technomancers have been well-recieved by most SR fans, far more so than otaku.
Several people have cited very different problems with technomancers - some (like mfb) simply don't like their "radio brains", others don't like the fact that they're too "magical", others don't like that they can do stuff regular hackers can't, some don't like them for the same reason they didn't like otaku (human brains shouldn't be able to process raw simsense, period). Some of these problems will be addressed when more is revealed about technomancers, others won't, but I'm pretty sure more people will come round once more is revealed about them and their abilities. There are very specific and practical reasons why Emergence is coming out before Unwired, reasons which will be self-evident once the book is available. But let's just say that the ramifications of Emergence reach far beyond technomancers and will potentially touch all aspects of the Matrix and everyone (pretty much everybody) who uses it in 2070. |
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Aug 28 2006, 12:09 PM
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#102
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
edit: @SL James post:
Thank you for enlightenig me :D Seriously, if one feels that TMs need more background info or can only be played with "Unwired", one should talk with the other gamers. Can't be that diffcult to find an agreement. :) This post has been edited by Grinder: Aug 28 2006, 12:10 PM |
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Aug 28 2006, 12:33 PM
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#103
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Yes. It'll be interesting to see what happens when everyone playing is a rules lawyer.
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Aug 28 2006, 01:28 PM
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#104
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
*sigh* Then I can see a great deal of work in my future. I don't wish to deny anyone else the opportunity to have these characters in their games if they want. But I've got the impression that there are quite a lot of people that dislike the idea of technomancers and for that reason I thought there might be some possibility that GanPro could bear this in mind and take a marginally more lego-like approach to them in the game. As I metioned there is a very successful example of this in the new Eberron setting with Psionics. Just for information my reasons for disliking Technomancers are none of the ones that you listed. My dislike stems from the following: I started playing with SR1 and reading the original Secrets of Power trilogy. One of the themes was Magic vs. Technology and that stuck with me. I have always liked the frisson between the two. My second reason is a little less personal and that is that I feel magic already has too great a role in Shadowrun. An integral part of the setting, yes. But to the extent that non-magical characters and PCs are second class citizens (both in terms of power and interest), I feel it is too much. And now we find that the division is one-sidedly broken and magic is taking over the machine world too. Hacking and the matrix was a something that mundanes had to themselves. Although Samurai were somewhat overshadowed by ever more powerful magicians in terms of damage dealing, quickened increase attributes, armour etc. and adepts could rival them, there were still riggers and hackers et al. Technomancer fluff changes this, making non-magical characters truly second best. It's that balance that is thrown out for me and why I don't have technomancers in the game. As I said, I don't want to deny others the chance to play these characters, and I understand that some of their designers may think they're very cool. But it's a lot of work for me to start unintegrating all this stuff from my game as it is for anyone else that doesn't want this. I don't want to see the matrix become something akin to metaplanes, or something that magicians can have a "true" understanding of or connection to, whilst the hacker is some unaware dabbler. As we have so little information on the new matrix or how to run it, I'm concerned that the groundwork for it is being laid in Technomancer terms rather than Hacker terms. The ordering of the books suggests this and now you have too. And just to emphasize my point above, I'm not so much talking about rules as I am about fluff. Balance issues are a concern, but it's the one-sided encroachment of magic into technology's domain that bothers me. |
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Aug 28 2006, 01:37 PM
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#105
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I'll never have a group like this. Hopefully. |
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Aug 28 2006, 02:02 PM
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#106
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
If I can use an RL example.
A newspaper here in the UK decided to print pictures of convicted paedophiles that have served their sentence and been released, to warn people that live nearby. One of the pictures showed a man wearing a chain/medallion type object. Immediately on the release a man wearing a similar chain was attacked with utterly no provocation. He was not connected to any paedophilic activity. The tabloid in question caught hell for it. All they need is one image of a supposed TM with a birthmark, tattoo, chain or necklace, ring, bracelet, or just about anything else and someone could get attacked. It doesn't even need to be an actual TM. Another more recent one... A couple of young Asian men were on a plane that had stopped at an intermediary airport before heading in to the UK. Some passangers demanded they be kicked off because they looked "a bit dodgy", literally. The pilot gave in and did so, whereupon the police looked into it and found them not to be suicide bombers, which was what the passengers suspected them of being. The people on the plane did not suggest searching them. Kicking them off would be no different than searching them for risk, since if they were bombers they would be just as able to trigger anything they had. There are also many reasons which could fit the vague description the passengers gave. Claustrophobia, fear of flying, illness or indigestion, being physically uncomfortable in their seats, boredom... the list is endless. The passengers did not consider it for a second. The witch hunt syndrome is still with us. And who said the SR world was PC? With groups such as Humanis and the like it's quite the opposite. |
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Aug 28 2006, 02:36 PM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
1. Wraith rocked. It was just nearly impossible to play.
2. It doesn't matter than a Technomancer is no different from a guy with an internal commlink. Don't you understand? HE DOESN'T HAVE A COMMLINK!!!! THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG!!! That's just how people are. New and different scares them. Uncontrollable things scare them. My daughter can't wear blue shoelaces to school. Because blue == gangs. There has been on gang activity in her school. There has been nothing to indicate it's a problem. But blue==gang. No blue shoelaces. 3. If you think non-magical characters are second best, you aren't installing enough Cyber. ;) Now the issue of the non-magical, non-cyber person being 2nd best is valid, but that's sort of like saying that the guy who brought a knife to a gunfight is second best.... 4. I point you to this story if you think witch hunts are gone. Dude was denied access to his flight until he removed a shirt with Arabic words on it. Words. |
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Aug 28 2006, 03:32 PM
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#108
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I will repeat what has been said elsewhere on several ocassions. Technomancers are not Awakened or magci, nor do they use magic in any fashion — at least not in the sense magic is referred to in Shadowrun. In fact, their abilities preclude (and will continue to exclude) the use of Magic. People are reading a lot into the fact that there are numerous parallels in mechanics, when neither the mechanics nor the fluff (what there is of it) supports the fact that Resonance is Magic - in fact quite the opposite. |
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Aug 28 2006, 04:13 PM
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#109
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
It's worked fine for me so far with SR3. |
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Aug 28 2006, 04:42 PM
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#110
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 433 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Iraq Member No.: 1,789 |
I think the reason some people think TMs are magic is because of the streamlined mechanics approach. TM "powers" are constantly referred back to Magic as a way of doing things. Sprites = Spirits but in the matrix is one example. Fluff is what keeps these elements separate. The references are just there to make sure you understand how the mechanics work. It's up to the GM to separate these different archetypes through the use of a descriptive environment and story.
I kinda like the idea of TMs but the rules are a little weird for me. I never really got the hang of Otaku so that might be why. Anyway, just my 2 :nuyen: Oh yeah, witch hunts have been prevalent throughout SR history. Remember Surge? That little bastard child everyone loves to forget :) As long as someone can come up with a good demonization of something, mass hysteria will take over. Even diets don't get away from witch hunts. Atkins is deadly for you, South Beach isn't healthy at all, blah blah blah. |
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Aug 28 2006, 04:56 PM
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#111
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 4-January 04 From: Redbridge, London, UK Member No.: 5,957 |
Everybody thinks that technomancers are magical. Some silly sod simply gave them the wrong name. Put "mancer" on the end, and we all assume you're telling us about a new type of magician. We all read fantasy and sci-fi books, you see. We know what a "mancer" is.
Personally, we do not use technomancers in our home campaign. We have otaku, we have deckers (what the frag's a "hacker"?), and technomancers just seem rather, well, munchy. Cheers, UJ |
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Aug 28 2006, 04:58 PM
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#112
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's more like most people are not able to wrap their head around the fact that TMs use magic that is no magic. Like nano-weapons that defeat the laws of physics. Let's just say that everything is alright and there is no such thing as the Technocracy. :grinbig: |
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Aug 28 2006, 05:50 PM
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#113
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Eh. When I say "Magic" it is shorthand for "And then a miracle happens." As for the rules... Well, there is quite a bit about that I can go into going back to the rules that were written for Otaku by the people who wrote RA:S and Brainscan and later became things like Submersion/Fading. But I'd rather not hash that shit out because it's not important. Convenience is an adequate reason. |
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Aug 28 2006, 07:06 PM
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#114
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Yeah - the similarity of rules. Also the way they interface directly with computers and microchips just by thinking loudly. Well, if it isn't magic, this is going to have to be one Hell of an explanation. I await with interest. |
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Aug 28 2006, 07:07 PM
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#115
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i understand that TMs are not intended to be magical. but radio brains? gimme a break. it's magic.
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Aug 28 2006, 07:21 PM
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#116
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
I'm trying to figure out which answer I would accept more. Them being magical, or them being some kind of genetic anomality in which their brains are infected with some sort of symbiotic digital parasite something akin to Snow Crash, in which their skin...
I can stop writing right now. Man. While I haven't really used either, yet? I personally preferred the otaku, more because the idea of a kid who hasn't gotten special hairs yet on a shadowrunner team because he's useful? Creepy Kid Syndrome wins out over Creepy Regular People syndrome. And I imagine that Technomancers smell even worse, as they don't even have to go out to the store to get software. |
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Aug 28 2006, 07:47 PM
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#117
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 28-July 05 Member No.: 7,526 |
I disliked otaku as PC's due to the age factor. Child PC's are generally a bad idea. Having a kid in the party, the story always ends up someplace really stupid or really horrible. huzzah for the TM!
Sooo, like theyve got an infection acting like some sort of software based ASIST? :cyber: |
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Aug 28 2006, 08:00 PM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
They're secretly aliens. From the non-planet Pluto.
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Aug 28 2006, 09:51 PM
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#119
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Target Group: Members Posts: 47 Joined: 26-February 02 From: London, England Member No.: 1,680 |
The mystery of how TM's work is one of the attractions for me. It adds a level of "what can the human brain really do?". As far as them denying Hackers a place, I have found this to not be the case. In a straight up hack on the fly, the TM can bring in his sprites for a ridiculous number of dice, but try and make a probing hack, or an extended data search, and the hackers starts to come out on top.
hackers can have every program at 4-5 at character creation, but a TM will only have the Complex forms they require. I find them to be much more specialized within the matrix, and almost useless outside the matrix (unlike our hacker who had enough money left over for some wired reflexes and skill wires). My only problem with my TM character is that he get to do about three different shades of nothing, unless there is Matrix involved. |
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Aug 28 2006, 09:55 PM
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#120
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
YMMV, of course :D Are all TMs childs? Don't think so. Otakus, yes, but TMs? |
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Aug 28 2006, 10:50 PM
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#121
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
On a similar note, I can now say from personal experience that combat in SR4 is neither simpler, nor less time-consuming, than combat in SR3. I did find the placement of Defense Modifiers to be nothing but inconvenient, btw. But, yeah. Everyone I play with is a rules lawyer. It's one of the more interesting artifacts of only playing online in a collaborative fiction setting/system. |
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Aug 28 2006, 11:13 PM
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#122
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 105 Joined: 28-August 05 Member No.: 7,637 |
I am in the distinct minority (majority) that find your constant psychobabble midly retarded, but majorly annoying. You don't like it, we get it. You need to move on, this 12 year old PAY ATTENTION TO ME bullshit is tiresome. Especially since we can't just skip threads you start since you infect plenty of threads, hijacking them, like this one. |
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Aug 29 2006, 12:59 AM
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#123
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Well, I don't see mfb, or myself, dredging up two-week old posts to bitch about. As for Emergence:
hoo... Wow. That's um... interesting. |
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Aug 29 2006, 04:55 AM
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#124
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 207 Joined: 3-November 05 From: KCMO Member No.: 7,922 |
Ummmm, I started this particular thread, mostly to rant about not getting into the FanPro seminar I wanted to see. I've found the turns this discussion has taken fascinating, especially as I am currently playing a TM. And, no, I don't mind the curmudgeons. Everybody's entitled to their own opinions. What I do mind are when it degenerates to personal pot-shots. So, hijack away, my friends! I'm having fun! |
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Aug 29 2006, 07:23 AM
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#125
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
We're not that bad. We make take your cargo and your license for, uh... safekeeping (yeah... that's it). But we also left $100 in your wallet and the boss knows better than to ride your ass about losing the truck.
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