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> Corporate Citizenship, How the @*$! does it work?
Tekumel
post Aug 18 2006, 10:51 AM
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OK, so at any point in this I may be wrong. Feel free to correct as necessary.

1. Corporations exist outside the realm of any nation.
2. I believe corporate employees have been referred to as "citizens" of their employer, and I know that corporations can and do assign corporate SINs.

Now, let's compare this to the real world...

Most countries I know of, if a citizen marries a non-citizen, the new spouse is either granted citizenship, or bumped much closer to the head of the line.

Would this be the case for a non-corporate employee? If an Ares employee married a non-corporate employed UCAS citizen, is Joe UCAS now an Ares citizen as well? I could see not doing so in inter-corporate marriages, but somehow I wouldn't see either spouse's employment lasting long if they chose to marry a competitor.

Random questions are fun!
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 18 2006, 11:07 AM
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Given the UCAS never really gave SINs to metahumans without an act of Congress before Dunk (thus, meaning the ork child of two humans would probably be SINless), all that means is a corp can say, "Nope, doesn't work here, stays SINless."
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Sicarius
post Aug 18 2006, 11:40 AM
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Why would any right thinking Ares employee marry outside the company? if they live on a corporate compound they live, work and relax with other "citizens" of the corp. They'd have to really go out of their way to avoid marrying a non-citizen. and if I was corporate internal security, I'd have to be suspicious of someone who went out of their way to find a union with someone not under the corporate umbrella.
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Snow_Fox
post Aug 18 2006, 11:44 AM
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It's problably more like someone marrying a memember of the military. Look at military wives overseas, like US army wives in Germany. They live in the enclave- the base- and enjoy all the perks and protection but they are only there because of their attachement to the memeber. If that person leaves service, they no longer enjoy the perks and must leave the base.
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Oracle
post Aug 18 2006, 12:03 PM
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QUOTE (LilithTaveril)
Given the UCAS never really gave SINs to metahumans without an act of Congress before Dunk

Are you sure about that? I thought Dunkelzahn was just the first non metahuman UCAS citizen... ;)
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Adarael
post Aug 18 2006, 12:09 PM
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QUOTE
Given the UCAS never really gave SINs to metahumans without an act of Congress before Dunk (thus, meaning the ork child of two humans would probably be SINless), all that means is a corp can say, "Nope, doesn't work here, stays SINless."


Correct in spirit, perhaps, but drastically incorrect in terms of what happened. Dunk was the first non-metahuman given citizenship, but there were PLENTY of Orks, Trolls, Elves, and Dwarves that had SINs before he came along.

For proof of this, simply look at first and early 2nd edition sourcebooks. PLENTY of legal citizens were metahuman. To deny a full 10-20% of the UCAS population citizenship despite their parentage wouldn't have caused a Night of Rage, it would have caused a year of partisan fighting.

Now... if an ork or a troll was to slip through the cracks, welll... Homeland Security can't be held accountable if they take their sweet time getting them a SIN back... say, after a crash in 2064, neh? Or informing them the paperwork is lost? Or they can't do anything without a signed birth certificate, which just HAPPENS to be on a system destroyed by the crash virus, neh?

The System wants and needs SINless, as cheap and expendible labor. To do the dirty work. To be written off. To be blamed and scapegoated. But the system can't come out and say that, and it especially can't say that it's based on race. Look at illegal immigrants in southern california. Us SoCal folks NEED them to make the economy run. If we deport them, we're out our cheap and expendible labor. If we naturalize them, we have to give them benefits. So they're a tacitly accepted and encouraged part of life here - a part that can, on an individual level, disappear if a message to be sent. But you'll never, ever catch any california politicians saying so out loud, because it'd be political suicide.

Despite the fact that anyone who's lived down here for any time knows that's how the system is currently running.
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 18 2006, 12:15 PM
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QUOTE (Oracle @ Aug 18 2006, 07:03 AM)
QUOTE (LilithTaveril @ Aug 18 2006, 01:07 PM)
Given the UCAS never really gave SINs to metahumans without an act of Congress before Dunk

Are you sure about that? I thought Dunkelzahn was just the first non metahuman UCAS citizen... ;)

Page 32, SR3:

QUOTE
People without SINs were defined as "probationary citizens," with sharply limited rights. (Yup, Mr. Pinkie Shadowrunner Wannabe, that means you.) The amendment made species other than homo sapiens eligible for--you guessed it--probationary citizenship. Full citizenship to such "undesireables" could only be granted by an act of Congress. (Not a single application actually was granted until until 2056, when the late, lamented Dunkelzahn got the nod.


Keep in mind that's from a section discussing the troubled relations between humans and the rest of the metahumans. The same thing is repeated, in a shorter form, in SR4. In context, "homo sapiens" can only refer to one subspecies: humans. Traditionally, that's the group it refers to anyway, so that just means that technical classification doesn't change public concepts. Science community can say elves are part of homo sapiens all the want, but Joe Blow Citizen is probably going to think "human" when they hear the term.

Edit:

QUOTE (Adarael)
For proof of this, simply look at first and early 2nd edition sourcebooks. PLENTY of legal citizens were metahuman. To deny a full 10-20% of the UCAS population citizenship despite their parentage wouldn't have caused a Night of Rage, it would have caused a year of partisan fighting.

Now... if an ork or a troll was to slip through the cracks, welll... Homeland Security can't be held accountable if they take their sweet time getting them a SIN back... say, after a crash in 2064, neh? Or informing them the paperwork is lost? Or they can't do anything without a signed birth certificate, which just HAPPENS to be on a system destroyed by the crash virus, neh?


Then have a chat with the writers of history for SR3 and SR4, because the wording specifically implies otherwise.
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Oracle
post Aug 18 2006, 12:25 PM
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I am sorry to correct you LilithTaveril, but Homo Sapiens means all kinds of metahumans.

The species is homo sapiens. homo sapiens sapiens, homo sapiens ingentis, homo sapiens nobilis, homo sapiens robustus and homo sapiens pumilionis are subspecies of homo sapiens.

I think you just misunderstood the concept of species and subspecies.
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RunnerPaul
post Aug 18 2006, 12:26 PM
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Of course UCAS ammendments about SINs and who they were issued have no legal binding over who extrateratorial corporations could issue Corporate SINs to.
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 18 2006, 12:29 PM
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QUOTE (Oracle @ Aug 18 2006, 07:25 AM)
I am sorry to correct you LilithTaveril, but Homo Sapiens means all kinds of metahumans.

The species is homo sapiens. The subspecies is homo sapiens sapiens, homo sapiens ingentis, homo sapiens nobilis, homo sapiens robustus and homo sapiens pumilionis.

I think you just misunderstood the concept of species and subspecies.

I'm just saying that, as worded, it led me to conclude that metahumans, besides humans, were not issued SINs until after Dunk. All I have is SR3 and SR4 to go on in this case, and neither section really makes it entirely clear.
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hyzmarca
post Aug 18 2006, 12:31 PM
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As writen, every human, including homo sapiens idaltu, is elegible for citizenship.
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Oracle
post Aug 18 2006, 12:37 PM
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Yes. Besides, other candidates in the 2057 elections were also non homo sapiens sapiens, for example Arthur Vogel, who was a dwarf. I might be wrong, but I doubt that a non-citizen could run for presidentship... ;)
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 18 2006, 12:43 PM
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Well, Dunk wasn't a metahuman when he announced his candidacy... Indicates to me he was certainly going to try anyway. Then again, who honestly has enough guts to tell a dragon "no" in that scenario?

Meh. Maybe I'm just too used to thinking of elves and dwarves as other species.
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Oracle
post Aug 18 2006, 12:46 PM
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QUOTE (LilithTaveril)
Maybe I'm just too used to thinking of elves and dwarves as other species.

Not maybe.
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Sicarius
post Aug 18 2006, 12:52 PM
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QUOTE (Snow_Fox)
It's problably more like someone marrying a memember of the military. Look at military wives overseas, like US army wives in Germany. They live in the enclave- the base- and enjoy all the perks and protection but they are only there because of their attachement to the memeber. If that person leaves service, they no longer enjoy the perks and must leave the base.

The military also does quite a bit to encourage its members not to marry non-citizens, making paperwork complicated, amongst other things. Besides trying to prevent immigration through marriage, I'm sure there's a security concern there as well.
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 18 2006, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (Oracle)
QUOTE (LilithTaveril @ Aug 18 2006, 02:43 PM)
Maybe I'm just too used to thinking of elves and dwarves as other species.

Not maybe.

Hey, I'll come as far as "maybe" in this one.

QUOTE (Sicarius)
The military also does quite a bit to encourage its members not to marry non-citizens, making paperwork complicated, amongst other things. Besides trying to prevent immigration through marriage, I'm sure there's a security concern there as well.


Well, what's to stop them from making it even more complicated? The potential spouse must pass security checking, be scanned by technology and mages, tested for diseases, have their genetic code put and kept on file, and would only be allowed into public areas aside from the home, all the while having a security escort the entire time they are out.
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SL James
post Aug 18 2006, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE (LilithTaveril @ Aug 18 2006, 06:43 AM)
Well, Dunk wasn't a metahuman when he announced his candidacy... Indicates to me he was certainly going to try anyway. Then again, who honestly has enough guts to tell a dragon "no" in that scenario?

No, but he was already a citizen. He became a citizen in 2056. I remember reading about (but can't find the actual cite) of him shaking hands with President Steele upon receiving the honor.
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LilithTaveril
post Aug 18 2006, 04:41 PM
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And, in the SR3 timeline, it says he announced his intentions to run for president, and the eligibility of his claim was challenged by his lack of a SIN, which het got before the race happened from Congress.
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Pendaric
post Aug 18 2006, 06:11 PM
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A corperate SIN is part nationality and part buisness contract. You work for the corp so your also part of the corp family, so your a citizen of the corp. If you marry a non corp citizen well thats fine, we always welcome new blood. Do they have skills that we can use? Well then here's our shopping channels and am sure all the security tests necessary to live on our nice safe corp housing enclave is just routine. In fact its just part of the legal requirements for the contract you signed so you could gain the Corp SIN allowing you to move around freely. Welcome to the family and thanks for making our worker happy and productive.

Mega Corps are so big their buisness is political, politics is war hence the adage buisness is war on the streets. The corp sec admin would trust a born and bred corper more than a recent employee, they usally have more to lose and a life time of conditioning. Their so big they have their own law and the force and power to enforce and defend their will and interests. So think big countries within countries. Perhapes if you imagine each enclave is the embassy of a super power. :nuyen:
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SL James
post Aug 18 2006, 08:54 PM
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QUOTE (LilithTaveril @ Aug 18 2006, 10:41 AM)
And, in the SR3 timeline, it says he announced his intentions to run for president, and the eligibility of his claim was challenged by his lack of a SIN, which het got before the race happened from Congress.

Really? I just skimmed through And So It Came To Pass (a copy of which is at srrpg.com) and it didn't even mention that issue.

A-ha. The money quote:
QUOTE (Super Tuesday @ 7)
In mid-2056, the great dragon Dunkelzahn was awarded UCAS citizenship by an act of Congress that produced a 15-minute media blitz (quickly forgotten as soon as the new Urban Brawl scores came along)


And here is the quote I was thinking of specifically
QUOTE (p.8)
Thomas Steele's famous "handshake" with Dunkelzahn launched the Technocrats to the top of the polls in mid-2056, a position they never left.


QUOTE
He is legally allowed to do this under the revision to the UCAS Constitution that allows new citizens to become President—a provision originally intended to "grandfather" citizens of Canada into the electoral process during the formation of the new union between Canada and what was left of the United States.


Not to say that there aren't plenty of miswording and screwups whenever SR gets into politics (especially Kenson, who wrote most of the Election 2057 material). That issue didn't have to be based upon the grandfathering in of Canadians (or Americans) in any way different from how the U.S. Constitution works. Allowing foreign-born citizens (more specifically than Dunk would be Nadja Daviar) to become President or VP is another matter altogether.

Then again, And So It Came To Pass has mistakes of its own:
QUOTE
The 2056 election put President Steele back in the White House, but not for long. In early 2057, evidence came to light that the '56 contest was rigged. Scandal rocked the UCAS, Steele and VP Booth were impeached, and President Pro Tem Betty Jo Pritchard called for a new election.

She wouldn't have been pro tem (which is a wholly separate title for someone else), or Acting President. She would have been President Pritchard. Period.

QUOTE
Riots engulfed the UCAS upon word of the dragon's death; we're still dealing with the aftereffects. Upon his swearing-in as president, former VP-elect Kyle Haeffner nominated Nadja Daviar, the "voice of Dunkelzahn," to fill his veep shoes.

He'd ceased to be VP-Elect at noon on the day of the inaguration and assassination.
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Tekumel
post Aug 20 2006, 05:09 AM
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QUOTE (Pendaric)
Perhapes if you imagine each enclave is the embassy of a super power.

Heh. I can't even think of how many Marine embassy guards I know that came back with local wives. So sorry son, but your analogy just got shot full of more holes than a prostitute at a golf tournament. :cyber:
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SL James
post Aug 20 2006, 06:00 AM
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What the hell are you doing to prostitutes at that golf tourament that they're being shot full of holes?
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mfb
post Aug 20 2006, 06:06 AM
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prostitute... golf... what? i'm so confused!
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SL James
post Aug 20 2006, 07:06 AM
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Perhaps he meant this aspect of golf.
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Snow_Fox
post Aug 20 2006, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (SL James)
What the hell are you doing to prostitutes at that golf tourament that they're being shot full of holes?

My brother in law takes it badly when he has a bad round of golf. Maybe this guy just takes it a lot further.
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