Dual wielding Machine Pistols?, I know it's cool, but is it a good idea? Options

[lorechaser]

I'm finally back in to SR after a 2 version hiatus (Ah, SR Revised....).

I'm trying to get a handle on the new system, and I think I'm doing pretty good.

My first character is an ork gunslinger adept (though fairly different from the Archetype in the book). I decided to go with Automatics with a specialization in Machine Pistols. That seems to give me the widest set of options. I can go from a single shot with a single weapon with a +2 bonus for smartgun, through dual bursts with a reasonable chance to hit the non combat wombats, all the way down to the insanity of dual long bursts in a round.

However, my DM was fairly surprised by my choice of Machine Pistols, rather than heavy pistols. His comment was, basically, wouldn't you rather just do one big shot that you know will hit?

To me, that's the point - I have options. But I haven't played yet - this is all theory. Am I gimping myself by taking machine pistols, rather than normal pistols? Am I going to regret ever using Burst shots?

To compensate, I have the following relevant bits:

I bought Agi 5, plus Muscle Toner 2, plus Suprathyroid, for a total of 8. Then Automatics 6, spec in Machine Pistols, plus Reflex Recorder (Automatic), plus Improved ability (Automatics) rank 3, for a total of 12 with machine pistols. So that's 20 dice, which seems fairly obscene, and more than enough to split in to two pools of 10.

I've got cyberhands on both arms with gyro stabilizers, and my guns both have Gas-Vent 3.

So the actual questions:

1. Do Gyro and Gas-Vent 3 stack, to give 6 points of recoil? If so, will that cover the likely recoil for 3 init passes worth of burst or SA fire?

2. Is burst fire viable in this situation, or did I build all this simply to default to using my XM30 with both hands all the time, because my main weapons suck?

3. Did I do anything illegal in the above? I stacked a lot of mods, but it seemed like it was all legal.

4. Any further suggestions?

[LilithTaveril]

1) Last I checked, yes. But, it's really not worth the effort to get for machine pistols due to the fact it can only affect one and takes up the whole upper body.

2) Burst-fire is viable with one weapon for two bursts and the other for one. I'd still stick with the XM30 in this case.

4) Well, if you can manage to accept the penalties, go for it. Just remember that dual-wielding has a penalty for it.

[lorechaser]

I also took the ambidexterity quality, so that's not an issue.

If the gyro vents are in the cyber arms, does that change your idea? ;)

[LilithTaveril]

... I think someone just pulled a me.

[lorechaser]

Ahh, yes. I'm expecting that part. I thought you meant the -2 you would take w/o it.

I think, if I truly have 20 dice, then 10 dice per pool isn't bad. But then the question becomes whether having two pools at 10 dice each is good and useful, or whether I'm simply emulating two average combatants. 10 dice is 3.3 hits on average. Assuming a 4 reaction, that's 1.3 hits on their side, so 2 hits total. That's likely to get through up to 6 points of armor (2 hits there). So I'm shooting two people with higher than average reactions, and average armor, successfully. And I get four shots per pass. With 3 passes, that's 12 shots, oddds are at least a couple of those get through.

But 20 dice in a pool is just horrific. So it's tempting to drop the 2nd gun aspect and simply do horrible horrible things to people.

So I guess question 5 becomes "Is dual wielding worth it in SR4?"

[Samaels Ghost]

With twenty dice to shoot with one gun you're going to find that after a little bit of play shooting with two feels absurd. It makes no sense to try to hit and wound with two guns when you can always hit and kill with one.

But I do caution you AND your GM against allowing such a large dice pool. One of our players had a similiar set-up and it ruined battle for him. WHen it came to be his turn he shot, there were some rolls where he always won, and then the guy was dead. NEXT! Things happened so quickly that his turns were over so fast. SHoot -> Dead. Period. Boring after the first few runs. Even for the D&D munchkin he was. Tone down the dicepool and you'll not only have something to work towards, but also have to think on your feet in battle, which is way more fun. Don't mean to preach, just what happened in our group :D

[Samaels Ghost]

So I guess question 5 becomes "Is dual wielding worth it in SR4?"

Not if you have multiple IPs

[lorechaser]

But dual wielding does solve the problem of one-shot, one-kill. I shrink my obscene dice pool. ;)

But so far, I'm getting the idea from you guys, and from running the numbers, that dual wielding falls in to the "cool, but useless" category. There are simply too many numbers you have to overcome (defense, armor) to be worth splitting your pool.

But I'll hold off on making that decision until a few more people chime in.

[LilithTaveril]

Well, there is the other problem: This kinda makes you a one-trick pony. So much of your setup is devoted to one area. Kinda like the archetypes for SR4. I can see that as easily being a problem.

[Samaels Ghost]

If shrinking a obscene dicepool is what you're going for try spreading out your BP. There's always some skill out there that could use a rank or two, just in case. For example, the money/essence spent on the suprathyroid gland is rarely worth it. Also, having 6 in Automatics isn't as useful as, say, some negotiation or con if you plan on keeping a secret. Etiquette or Con are used when trying not to look suspcious, something a runner has to do A LOT!

[JonathanC]

Dude, dual-wield EVERYTHING. There's nothing that isn't better with two of them wielded akimbo. Don't stop at machine pistols. Read my lips: dual combat axes.

[Samaels Ghost]

That enthusiasm is infectious. Yep, two axes would be awesome. So long as we're talking about the Path of the Badass, Use that improved ability power and weapon foci. If you're in it for the long haul look into the Adept metamagic Attunement instead of foci. That bonus never caps, while foci I think (keyword: think) cap at six. I certainly hope they cap at six...

Make sure to get Gymnastics instead of dodge so that you're more mobile while dual-weilding your axes (ally spirit dikoted axes?). It saves BP to dodge gun-fire with ridiculous flips than just straight getting out of the way. To dodge melee use the parry manuver, making your axe skill even more awesome. If you're truly badass you can target multiple guys with each axe swing, splitting your Agi+Blades three times total. Remember, specs and other such bonuses are not split, just the skill+att.

[Samaels Ghost]

And if you really improve your jumping you can long-jump faster than you run. Gymnastics is also used for reducing falling damage.

Just imagine, dual-axe weilding jumping dwarves that fly wuxia-style around the battlefield. Deadly Disney gummy-bear warriors!

[ShadowAnt]

[Firewall]

[Butterblume]

Dual wielding against the elite (like the Red Samurais) won't work. You're more likely to miss twice that way.

Another point, cover/vision modifiers are applied after the splitting of the dice pool.

Dual wielding is cool, but not beneficial in a lot of situations. So, if you are aware of the limitations, go for it, I say :cyber:.

[Gort]

Dual-wielding is well worth it in situations where you can kill the opposition with only half your dice pool. You get double the firepower that way.

However, those situations are very rare - your opposition would need to be quite a long way below you. Situations where you want the full pool every shot are far more likely.

I suppose a gunslinger adept type with two pistols would be able to pull it off - it is very impressive if you can take out four guys in a single IP, but you're better off switching to one gun if serious opposition shows up.

[venenum]

[Critias]

[Firewall]

[lorechaser]

Because when the shooting starts, you run to the shadows!

This character does actually have other abilities - mainly the ability to be sneaky, and the ability to act as a field medic. And a couple points in con, just because it seemed universally useful.

Bt as much as dual wielding has the ubercoolness, I'm pretty well weaned over to the single weapon side.

The main reason I min/maxed so horrifically was precisely the fact that you split your dice pools when dual wielding. It seemed like the best way to get to an effective level with two weapons was to be horrifically overpowered with one. But even then, you're still just acceptable, which is no fun if your position in the party is "ranged specialist."

Thanks for all the help! On to my next oddness. :)

[Stephen_E]

Lorechaser there were a few things you got wrong ruleswise with 2 gun fighting, as well as some stuff that looked a little odd about your character build (at least for a starting build).

In SR4 Dice pools are based on Attribute + Skills + Modifiers.
Everything that doesn't specifically say "this increases your Attribute" or "this increases your Skill" is a modifier. If it say "you get additional dice when using this skill" it's a modifier.

Specialisation, Reflex recorders, Adept Improved Ability are all Modifiers.
Adept Attribute Boost, Improved Physical Attribute, Muscle Augumentation, Skillsofts all change your actual Attribute or Skill.

This is important because when 2 gun fighting you split your pool BEFORE adding or subtracting ANY modifiers.

So a 2 gun fighter adds his Agility + Skill, splits it between guns, and then adds or subtracts any relevant modifiers.

Interestingly enough this means that Adepts in particular can be effective 2 gun fighters without maxing out their single gun pool by pumping their Improved Ability to the max. An Adept with Ag 3, Pistol 5, Specialisation Hv Pistols, Improved Ability - Pistols 5, Smartlink and Ambidexterity will have 17 dice with a single Pistol and 11/11 dice with 2 Pistols.


The other stuff about your build that looked odd -
1) Superthyroid gland. Availability 20 is well above the 12 limit for starting characters.
2) All that Bioware and Cybergear is chewing up your Essense. Each Essense point lost (round up) cost you a magic point you've paid for. i.e. If you buy 4 Magic points and lose 2 Essense, you're left with 2 magic points of a max 4.
Are you sure you could afford all those Adept abilities as well as all the Cyber/Bioware?

Stephen

[Lagomorph]

I totally missed this thread the first time.

I think with machine pistols, dual wielding would work really well. Using full auto, you're adding +9 dv, you'd be hard pressed to get +9 DV from hits alone on 20 dice. Doing that twice, it's like you've got a SA weapon with 27 dice behind it, besides what ever hits you get with your actual dice.

The big difference is that they might have a decent chance at dodging a dual full auto attack. Since you'd only be throwing 4 dice per arm after recoil penalties (3 uncomped bullets per weapon = -6 to both pools). But you can compensate for that by throwing wide bursts, they'll never dodge with -9 dice from their pool.

I think the biggest problem would be reloading every other combat turn or so.

Stephen: He bought cyber hands, those are .25 ess each he's only down 1 magic point max with all the cyber he's got.

[Stephen_E]

[Clyde]

I agree that the build is a little funky - I flat wouldn't allow it in my game, legal or no.

Using two weapons comes with steep penalties and only a few advantages. If I had to choose that, I'd go one of two weapons: submachine guns or heavy pistols. The heavies don't come with the recoil problems of a machine pistol, but crank out much the same damage. Submachine guns do better damage, are better for single wielding, and come with a MUCH longer range than a machine pistol. Submachine guns are also cheaper and come with better ammo capacity and built in options.