Anti-magic specialist under SR4 Rules, Generation tips? Options

[Vitalix]

Hey all,

Been playing the SR's since 1990 (I think) up to 2001 and now our gaming group has finally gotten our act together to play SR4. Seems kina awkward, average age being 34 in the group, but what the heck it's the best RPG system we all played.

I'm in a jam and I'd appreciate your assistance. I want to create an anti-magic specialist character under SR4 rules. I've tried the obvious things -- high willpower, magic resistance -- and combinations of skills and stats, but nothing seems to work that is not just a combat mage or a cyberguy. I just wind up making a combat goon. I don't want a combat goon. I want a counter-magical specialist who stops magic and mages in it's tracks (and can resist their attacks) in a creative and interesting way.

Any template suggestions for designing a character that specializes in taking out mages and magical forces and can actually do it better than the "fighters" in the group? Last time I tried this it was a disaster.

Thanks much for your help,

Vitalix

[LilithTaveril]

Well, my favorite piece of SR fiction said that the best counterspell is a bullet to the brain. They can't cast spells if you shoot them first, after all.

That said, just make a normal combat monster, grab the magic resistance quality, and grab big guns for your equipment.

[Cardul]

I would think actually high thrown weapon skills, stealth, and invisibility spells. It would be all about hitting the mage without him being able to see you. You would probably not use direct fire weapons, or if you did..it would be after things like Flash-Bang grenades. You might take Aspected Magician: Conjuring, so you could deal with banishing spirits, or make yourself a full Magician, but have high skills in Counter-spelling and Banishing, while weak in everything else..maybe only healing and an invisibility spell.

That is how I would make a Anti-magic specialist, anyway...sniping, grenades, invisibility, counter-spelling and banishing...

[Vitalix]

Great stuff, thanks. And this thread is only fifteen minutes old.

I hadn't actually thought of a stealth approach. I also like the conjuring idea. Is there a skill in counter-spelling? I'm still new the SR4 book.

Keep 'em coming!

Thanks again,

Vitalix

[Ancient History]

Well, until future products come out your best bet is to fight fire with fire. Or, in this case, invest in Astral Combat, Banishing, Counterspelling, spells that specificly target spirits (Spirit Zapper), detect magic that is not immediately visible (Astral Clairvoyance), protect or negate from magical attacks (Offensive Mana Barrier), and generally make magic more difficult (Mana Static), and metamagics that protect against magic (Absorbtion, Flux, Reflecting, Shielding).

A weapon focus never hurts either.

[LilithTaveril]

Or, if you're a sadistic bastard, invest in smartlinked missile/grenade launchers, hide them around a combat area, and then trigger them as soon as the mage comes into sight. Nothing like that piece of discarded pipe launching a missile at you to ruin your concentration on summoning a spirit.

[Ancient History]

Dis's ma pet hellhound Russell. I had to train him off of them blackberry cats - wouldn'ta been any left in the whole damn county otherwise. Say, you lookin' sideways at me spellslinger boy?

[Jaid]

well, if you have street magic, here's one way of doing it:

you'll want to be a mystic adept with astral perception (i figure it's important for counter-mages as it is for mages), and probably only 1-2 points of magic devoted to spellcasting. as i recall, counterspelling does not benefit from magic in any way, so you should be good on this. you will need a tradition that gets spirits with the magical guard power as well, of course. elf would work best for the race, but is not strictly necessary, and in any event you probably want a tradition that resists drain with charisma. a counterspelling focus is of course absolutely critical.

you will want to initiate of course, for shielding and reflecting (this works better the more mages you have counterspelling. with just yourself, reflecting is likely not worth it). most people will tell you reflecting is terrible, and generally i suppose they are right. i expect that's because they haven't considered the monstrosity that i am about to present (or perhaps wouldn't allow it).

you see, counterspelling can benefit from teamwork bonuses (unlike normal spellcasting) and can therefore get crazy high. for example, if you have 8 force 3 spirits helping you out with magical guard (7 from charisma if you're an elf, 1 unbound) that's an extra 7 dice. most players will be able to give you an extra 1-2 dice as well, if they can counterspell. plus your counterspelling focus. if the other people on the team can get spirits going as well, then you should be set. you yourself should probably spring for counterspelling 7, so that you always lead the counterspelling tests. so then, you're looking at 7 (skill) + 7 (spirits) + 2 (focus... might be 3) + however many dice your friends can add in, + the dice from the person resisting. if you spend an edge to remove the limits (and of course throw more dice and reroll the sixes), then the spell you send back will be low force, but have a crapload of dice behind it, and you should (on average) generate around 9 successes, assuming your other teammates don't add on counterspelling dice of their own, a reasonable resisting attribute from your buddy, and a good edge on your part. of course, i originally thought up this possibility with a group of characters, all decked out more or less like i am suggesting your character be built, to add on tons of spell defense. just imagine the look on someone's face when they lob a force 12 stunbolt at you and it comes back at them stronger =D without those extras, reflecting may not be worth it. perhaps flux would be a better choice of metamagic in that case.

in other news, i believe your ability to create wards would be based entirely on your total magic score, so that ties in nicely with your anti-magic theme. your other adept powers could be more or less anything (boost your body for resisting spells maybe, and reaction for dodging indirect spells). i would say a very effective second set of abilities would be a social adept (kinesiology ftw), since you already want a good high charisma attribute, and you'll want at least some social skills anyways.

now then, on to spells: you will want spells like increase willpower, increase body (to increase spell resistance of yourself and others... a sustaining focus would also be good), and that spell that creates a background count. probably some nice astral barriers would be good too.

like i said, this works best if you have multiple mages doing it. i had considered it as a NPC group really, that basically sold their services to people specifically as spell defense. specifically for reflecting spells at anyone who tries to pull a ritual off on someone =D preferably they would also add in a magical lodge, of course ;)

of course, you may prefer something a little less munchy, and i can totally understand that desire =D

[Glyph]

Since you have ruled out magic-resistant sammies with heavy weaponry and augmentations, as well as full mages, that pretty much leaves mystic adepts. Which can be very effective. I would agree with Jaid that you only need 1 or 2 points of magic invested in magery - counterspelling can also be used against sustained spells and such, but to go that route effectively you would need a full mage.

Instead, take counterspelling and astral combat as your main magical skills, then for your adept abilities, either get a weapon focus, or take killing hands and critical strike. Mystic armor is good, since it is effective on the astral plane. An initiative boost to round it off, and you have an antimagical specialist. You will weaken or stop incoming spells, and be able to inflict substantial damage on spirits. You won't be quite as good in mundane combat, but will be much more effective against magical threats.

[Ophis]

In addition to what Glyph said, add in the spell resistance adept power, that and good willpower and body should make you laugh off any spells cast on you.

However I do like the idea of someone who is a dead magic zone, I sure it's been done in some book or other, but could be cool.I'd do it as a quality probably 5 points that allows you to buy counterspelling that always works near you (ie no choice not to do it, just resists all magic, even from your friends). That would be crap as a Pc i think but a cool encounter for a magic heavy group.

[Witness]

Play a dwarf. They're resistant to magic, you know. Oh wait... ;)

[Mekalus]

Hmm love the idea so much I went ahead and created one. You may feel free to use him as long as you know that a twin will exist for him in the SR world :D

[ Spoiler ]

David Rehcsif aka Dead Zone
RACE: Dwarf (25 BP)

ATTRIBUTES (195 BP)
Body: 4
Agility: 3
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 2
Intuition: 3
Logic: 2
Willpower: 4
Edge: 2
Magic: 6 (5 to adept 1 to magic)

Essence: 6
Initiative: 6
Initiative Passes: 1
Physical Damage Track: 10
Stun Damage Track: 10

ACTIVE SKILLS (158 BP)
Firearms Group:Level 3 (30)
-Automatics
-Longarms
-Pistols
Stealth Group:Level 3 (30)
-Disguise
-Infiltration
-Palming
-Shadowing
Banishing Skill: Level 4 (16)
Counterspelling Skill: Level 7 (Combat Spell Specialization) (34)
Perception Skill:Level 2 (Visual Specialization) (10)
Hardware Skill: Level 2 (Maglocks Specialization) (10)
Spellcasting Skill:Level 4 (Manipulation Specialization) (10)
Dodge Skill:Level 2 (Ranged Specialization) (10)

KNOWLEDGE SKILLS (15 FREE BP)
North American Arms Dealers: Level 3 (6)
Seattle Safehouses: Level 2 (4)

LANGUAGES SKILLS
English: N (Lingo:Cityspeak)
Latin: 2 (4)

QUALITIES (0 BP)
Mystic Adept (10)
Murky Link (10)
Mentor Spirit (Mountain) (5)
Bad Luck (+20)
Talisman Geas (Gold mountain with siler inlay top pendant worn on steel chain around neck) (+10)
SINner (+5)

ADEPT POWERS(5 points)
Spell Resistance Level 4 (2)
Cloak Level 6 (1.5)
Magic Sense (.5)
Piercing Senses Level 4 (1)

SPELLS (3 points)
Mana Static

GEAR & LIFESTYLE (75,000¥) (15BP)


CONTACTS (4 BP)
Fixer (Connection 2/Loyalty 2)

[Vitalix]

This is really good advice, thanks. Thanks especially to Jaid for the detailed response.

The mental cobwebs are falling off as I begin to remember some of the basic SR concepts. It's been five years .. perhaps five years too long.

As for a augumentation/weapons heavy character, I'm not totally against it. Actually it would be needed because in our gaming group we are very mage heavy. Too mage heavy in my opinion so a cyberguy would make a strong contrast. Yet, any combat goon with a big gun is not really a specialist. Perhaps there's a way to buy/be skilled with indirect goodies like some posts mentioned to be one helluva mundane anti-mage shooter?

That character, Mekalus, is a fine template. You chose a Dwarf and not an Elf, why? I noticed some of the other posts mentioned choosing Elf as a race for the charisma. I know this is a real nooby question but, why are the stats so low on the character? I'm guessing the mage template does not the points to spend on stats.

Vitalix

[Jaid]

elf for charisma was due to the intended summoning and binding of multiple spirits to add a large teamwork bonus to your counterspelling if you're not going for the reflecting monster, then you only need enough dice to consistently reduce the opponent's successes to 0, and not enough to massively overwhelm their spell, and thus charisma becomes less important.

[James McMurray]

The first two posts in this thread made me chuckle a bit.

[LilithTaveril]

I was wondering when someone would catch that.

Actually, that's pretty much it at this point. No matter how you're going about it, you're still making a combat monster, whether it be magical or relying on implants. Technically, you can't counter magic without being a combat monster. That's why I made a second suggestion.

[G.NOME]

If you don't want to make a mage or a combat sammie, then how about a physad with Level 3 Spell Resistance and Level 2 Improved Reflexes?

(Adept Spell Resistance being an entirely different animal from the Quality Spell Resistance)

Or, alternatively, drop the Imp. Reflexes and get Critical Strike and Improved Combat Skill (Unarmed Combat) to fight off the summoned spirits?

I mean, maybe there are some more creative ways of doing this (FAB Flash Bangs? Para-critters? Sacrificing lab rats to increase the background count?) that we haven't covered. But c'mon. What're you gonna do, have an army of trained ninja bees assasinate the mages in their sleep? I think this topic has pretty exhaustively covered most of the options available to you (although I don't own a copy of Street Magic).

Maybe you could be drone rigger that specializes in attaching hypodermic needles full of arsenic to very small drones. Maybe you could be a spell-resistant adept with astral perception that geeks mages before they get within half a mile of you. Maybe you could give them food poisoning.

OOoooh. How about you be a Technomancer with magical resistance (you'd be immune to "Detect Enemies" spells, hopefully) who hacks their guns and makes the mages shoot themselves in the foot.

[lorechaser]

Has it been confirmed somewhere that you can use your entire magic pool for counterspelling?

[Butterblume]

Actually, magic rating isn't used for counterspelling at all. (this is probably why I was not sure earlier)

(edit: I am pretty sure it was another thread where I was confused :wobble: )

[lorechaser]

Ah ha!

I don't have my books with me, since I'm at work (not that I do char creation at work, or reading forums, or anything). That makes things significantly different.

In prior versions, it did matter, yes? My GM mentioned an old Physad ability that applied their full magic rating to counterspelling.

Edit: And an average age of 34 is only slightly higher than my group. No worries. ;)

[2bit]

I would go with Jaid's suggestion... Mystic adept will keep your character from getting too combat-monstery and emphasizes well-roundedness. That whole bit about reflection metamagic and spirit aid is kinda weird and entirely ignorable.
Any non-Awakened character designed to be anti-magic is going to be a combat monster, though... aside from a good education and personal magic resistance, a mundane doesn't have many options when it comes to dealing with the opposition's magic... just deadly force.

[Geekkake]

Drones. Drones drones drones. That +4 Threshold to affect them magically really makes them worthwhile against mages, unless I'm not understanding something.

They're more or less worthless against spirits, of course, but the mage himself? Couple roto-drones with SMGs or ARs, eat him alive.

[Thufar_Hawat]

[Ancient History]

[Samaels Ghost]

I remember it from NAGEE too.