Are we missing an errata?, seems like there's something missing Options

[JonathanC]

So, SR4 has rules for encumbrance...but there are no weights listed for any of the equipment. And while some things, like a few hundred bullets, could probably be extrapolated from something or other, I've got no idea how I would go about speculating on the weight of a Panther cannon. And speaking of the Panther Cannon, it says it's got all this recoil, but there's no listing for it. And it's got 1 point of recoil compensation, on a SS mode gun that doesn't, by the letter of the rules, need it at all.

So unless it's intentional that an anorexic dwarf can carry a bazooka on his back while firing a Panther cannon, I think we're due for some errata. 8)

[Oracle]

I think it is more a case of "use common sense".

[JonathanC]

So what would you consider to be a "common sense" recoil for a Panther XXL cannon? And really, if we're just going to leave the rules to common sense, why print rulebooks?

[Critias]

I think he means leave encumbrance to common sense -- IIRC, that's even the official party line as to why they left weights out (that, and their weights were so ridiculous in previous editions maybe they were just tired of us bitching).

And as for recoil, well, fluff ain't rules. If the rules say it's got recoil, it's got recoil. If the rules don't, it don't. It's not too complicated, don't overthink it.

[JonathanC]

The thing is, encumbrance rules are useless without weights. The rules actually *require* weights in order to be used. They're written as if you have access to weights. And frankly, not every situation is purely common sense. If I've got a guy with fair to low strength, and he's always carrying around a bunch of small stuff, how much small stuff is too much? And really, how much does a small drone weigh? We don't even know exactly what they're made of. Steel? Iron? Graphite? Some kind of weird polymer?

[cx2]

Actually the SR4 rules explicitly state that you only need to worry about weights if someone tries carrying a huge load of stuff at once. The only type of encumberance that isn't mostly left to gm discretion is for armour if I recall properly.

[JonathanC]

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Most of the time, the description how they carry it around will keep this in sane levels.

[Critias]

Yeah -- when you see a character with a gigantic list of doo-dads and knick-knacks he wants to carry with him everywhere, just ask him where he's got it. Cargo pants pockets? A man-purse? A schoolbag?

Get a reasonable answer from 'em, and game on. Or, don't get a reasonable answer, trim the fat a little bit, work it out, and then game on. There's no reason to clutter up the equipment charts with another column, just for this (especially not given how insane their listed weights were, in previous editions, making it a column everyone ignored anyways).

[Teulisch]

the metahuman body has a weight. so your troll is more limited when using two dwarves ad clubs than he is swinging a couple iron girders.

the problem with common sense, is most people dont have any. when carrying heavy objects, the quistion is not pure weight so much as bulk of the item, leverage, and how long you can hold onto something a certain way. if you get a heavy weight in a plastic bag, the real limit is how the bag is going to dig into your fingers if you try to carry it by the handles.

if you have a way to carry your gear properly, it wont seem as heavy over the short-term. carrying a lot of weight in backpack and tactical harness for any length of time becomes more of an endurance question than a strength one.

one of the more interesting encumberance systems i remember (rolemaster? Merp?) has a rule where you counted only a small % of weight worn (armor), and a reduced amount for weight in a backpack or similar.

[Critias]

So, fine. We'll all pretend I just got a freelance gig to write an encumbrance rule for SR4. Everyone ready? Here's the official word from on high: if you have common sense, use it when determining encumbrance for your characters. If you don't have common sense, go on living your worthless life wallowing in ignorance and joyous liberation from the gravity-based shackles holding back lesser men from carrying everything and a kitchen sink around.

There. Problem solved.

[Gort]

Thing is, I don't WANT to use "common sense". I'm really not sure how strong strength 1 is, in terms of what a person can carry without taking penalties.

Common sense is all very well and good when you're talking about how awkward it would be to carry stuff around, but can a strength 1 character carry an armour vest, commlink, and an SMG without taking penalties?

Strength is such a bad stat already, it needs these rules to be worth a damn.

[LilithTaveril]

In the equipment section, it tells you how to define how much a person can carry based on their strength.

That aside, common sense means jack shit if you've never carried or fired a gun before. I can't name a single person in my group who's ever carried an assault rifle. While the Houserules Edition of SR does allow for a lot of leeway, this is one area where it only creates problems, as common sense tells us to not use movies as a base for our rulings, but we only have movies for any sort of experience to rely on.

And, finally, how many of you have fired a portable tank cannon in real life? I haven't. I have no clue what would be anywhere near appropriate. Would it be like that of a rifle? Or would it shatter the upper half of your body on the first shot? Well?

[DireRadiant]

[Demerzel]

So since uncompensated recoil from one hand affects the other hands shooting, does that mean that if a Panther AC has 1 point of recoil compensation that you can dual wield them with ambidexterity for no penalty?

[Critias]

I dunno, go see if "assault cannon" is on the list of weapons that can be dual wielded.

[DireRadiant]

[LilithTaveril]

Which doesn't work out if you have a smartassed player who mounted the weapon on a tripod and is dual-wielding them without carrying them. Especially if they smartlinked the cannons.

Edit: To be honest, the way it looks, this is yet another item where to make it functional, you have to houserule it. Now, while I don't mind it, at times it does get annoying to have to go in and complete what the developpers didn't. That's not why I bought the game.

This post has been edited by LilithTaveril: Aug 24 2006, 02:00 PM

[James McMurray]

[Critias]

[lorechaser]

I think the developers took a look at a big stack of To Dos.

Cyberwear. Magic. Adepts. Weapons. Essence. Skills. On and on and on.

And they looked at one stack that said "Figure out the weights for everything in the book."

And John Q. Dev said "Hey, Bob, do you use encumberance rules?" "Huh? Encumberance? No way. I just do what makes sense." "Huh. What about weird stuff?" "Eh, I work it out on the fly." "Huh. Hey, Sue, do you use encumberance rules?" "Eh, I tried to. But it was a pain." "Huh. Hey, Willie the poolboy, do you use encumberance rules?" "I do." "How do you weight things like an MCT Steel Lynx?" "Well, first I downloaded 14 schematics of modern day robots. Then I extrapoloated the weights based on chemical and physical changes over technology. I adjusted based on this grid, which plots awkwardness versus arm length. Here, let me just print out the 38 page guide to robot weights for you..." "Um, no, that's okay."

And John took that last stack, and dropped it in the trash, and said "Let's make some more ways to put holes in people."

Rock on John. Rock on.

[Critias]

Exactly. I don't think this is as big a deal as some people are trying to make it. If you wanna dislike SR4, fine, dislike SR4. But dislike it for the big reasons, don't go wasting your time scraping up new petty shit to hate it for.

[DireRadiant]

[Teux]

I'm of the opinion that weight isn't a big deal for most situations.

The biggest thing is just to be consistent.

If your troll can lug around a drone with no problem on Tuesday, don't make the same drone unluggable on Saturday.

You can always just fall back on the biggest GM tool available. When in doubt, make shit up.

Just be sure to write the stuff down as you make it up, so your consistent next time your players want to do the same thing.

[Demerzel]