Vampire:, the pretentious RPG Options

[Dread Polack]

I don't want to piss off any V:tM or even any V:tR players, I actually think it's a pretty solid game. I've played a little of the new system, and I like it. I was thinking of importing some of the concepts. Here's my ideas.

Keeping things simple, since the idea isn't really to make Vampires a PC race, I want to have blood, in the form of drained essence, taken more often and used up like blood points/vitae in Vampire. I'd have a pool of Essence available to Vampires, and used to fuel their powers. A vampire with a Strength Boost power would spend a point of essence and raise his Strength. You could use it like, or in the place of edge. You could have their powers have a drain code which would deduct essence instead of inflict stun damage.

This ties in with my post about essence loss since Vampires would be going through Essence a lot faster than one per month, and so they'd have to suck on a lot more people to stay fueled up if their using their powers.

I'll try to come up with some sample mechanics, but I thought I'd throw out the idea first, and see what people think.

Dread Polack

[Jaid]

can't vampires already use essence to temporarily boost their attributes?

i mean, it just seems to me that what you're doing is actually already built in to the SR4 vampire...

[Cabral]

I believe in SR3 they had enhanced attribute (strength), but not in SR4; no essence based powers in SR4.

What you may want to look at is the Blood Magic metamagic abilities in Street Magic. That might help you acheve what you want more easily.

[Clyde]

You may want to consider tying blood points into their Edge stat. That would give your vampires the ability to fuel all sorts of abilities.

[Jaid]

[hobgoblin]

so basicly they rolled the essence boost into the essence drain. hmm...

[Cabral]

Yeah, it's a little awkward, but I can see how, given the direction they took, it was the logical place to include it.

[Dread Polack]

So, if I had actually read the entire power instead of just skimming it...

Right, thanks :)

We're getting there, but I think I might go further. I'll post some samples when I get them.

Dread Polack

[hobgoblin]

or maybe did like me, assumed there was nothing new to see...
ugh, i just keep doing that, and it keeps coming back to bite me.

[FrankTrollman]

Keep in mind that a Vampire is never going to bother to use their Essence to increase their Strength. The very idea is preposterous. Vampires have the choice of augmenting a physical stat (only Agility or Reaction is particularly sexy here) or their Magic. So guess what they do now?

The Vampire in SR 1 through to SR3 was crazy strong. The SR4 vampire is essentially normal human strength and either super fast or an incredibly powerful magician. And yes, I believe that a substantial amount of flavor was lost in going that route.

---

Now, if you want to import WoD stuff into SR, go ahead. The systems are completely compatible in all ways. The average hits per die is the same in both cases and the expected dice pool range of player characters and the inherent method of factoring them are virtually identical. Shadowrun 4 works a little better than nWoD does (Soaking, Edge, and Thresholds are more robust mechanics than the nalagous Defense Ratings, Willpower, and Extraordinary Success mechanics). So really, if you wanted to play nWoD straight, you'd probably want to simply port it into Shadowrun. It's not difficult at all.

-Frank

[Jaid]

or the vampire is a super magician with a bunch of sustaining foci for health spells, and is also fast, strong, smart, charismatic....

incidentally, i see nothing keeping a vampire from boosting edge either. it isn't explicitly included, but neither is it explicitly excluded, and the fact you can boost magic shows you aren't supposed to be restricted from special attributes in general at least.

[FrankTrollman]

[knasser]

If the normal exchange rate for Essence : Attribute isn't sufficient then just drop it to a one-to-one exchange. That will give you more of a scary super-human vampire if you want it. I wouldn't allow that for Magic attribute, however. Remember that attribute boosts will last 12 hours and you only lose half the essence that you spend.

[Jaid]

[James McMurray]

[FrankTrollman]

Well, the rules for being strong aren't. That's problematic for characters that gain a high Strength Attribute.

Since there really aren't any rules for lifting great weights or throwing heavy things or doing anything else that you could plausibly do if you were "very strong", giving yourself a high strength isn't meaningful.

It's a tragic casualty of the lack of coherent lifting/carrying rules. Since it takes a character with a strength of 12 to be able to lift a small woman over their head consistently, it is easy to see that swing dancers and figure skaters are generally speaking magically augmented Orks. :rolleyes:

And that's why noone is going to bother jacking their Strength up with Essence when they could do things that have real game mechanically defined value. Having a high strength is like having a high Comliness in Champions - it doesn't do anything.

-Frank

[zero skill LPB]

[mfb]

if you want to run fast or jump far, you need a high Str. it is true, though, that being fast or accurate is, by the rules, more generally valuable than being strong. you'll want to be strong for a few specific situations; you'll want to be fast or accurate pretty much all the time.

[James McMurray]

Exactly. Which is why the statement phrased as an absolute is wrong. Just as an easy example I can see a vampire in melee with someone wanting to make himself stronger if he's already evenly matched. Every 2 points of strength is one point of DV, but it takes 3 points of Agility to equal 1 point of DV. So if he can be reasonable sure of hitting then strength is a better deal. Likewise if you're looking at hurting an object. Accuracy doesn't count for much when you're swinging at a door. :)

I'm not saying it's common. It wouldn't be. But it's far from the "never" that it was touted to be.

[hobgoblin]

i wonder, how quicly can the vampire shift the points around?
ie, can he go for fast one moment and then shift over to strong the next?
ok, so given that only half the points are returned each time the change happens, its will be a problem of diminishing returns. but it could potentialy work if the vampire have a very high essence pool?

[Cabral]

[DireRadiant]

[hobgoblin]

ugh, this is highly oddball...

[hyzmarca]

Actually, Essence Drain takes more than just a complex action. It is an extended test with an interval of 1 minute and requires 4-10 successes depending on the target's essence rating. Furthermore, the vampire must have total concentration during the act. If it is interrupted then the vampire must start over from scratch.

It isn't just an extended test, either. It also requires that the target be unable or unwilling to resist. You can't just grab a guy off the street and essence drain him without any preperation. You have to tie him up or seduce him first. If he isn't restrained or willing then the essence drain won't work.
It also requires the presence of strong emotions. Any strong emotion will do but it must be directed at the vampire. This means that you'll probably have to seduce him anyway, since lust and passion are the most reliable. Asside from basic seduction the vampire could also torture him, taunt him about his impending doom, fellate him gainst his will, beat him with a bullwhip while wearing leather chaps, ride him like a horse and dig spurs into his hips, and ect.
This is why most vampires are bisexual dominatrices.


By the way, it has always been like that. The idea is that if a vampire ties you up and has you alone for several minutes and is able to tortures/seduces you without arousing any attention then you're too screwed to complain about a little essence loss. If the vampire could just grab you it would really PO the sammies and the magicians.

However, these requirements make attribute boost very nearly useless. I prefer to houserule it the old way. Always on for every attribute. This makes vampires far more formidable. I also like to houserule Regen back to fully healing the vampire every three seconds unless overcome and being made more difficult by alergens and nervous system damage rather than stopping altogether..

[James McMurray]

My guess is that he meant to say the essence drain power that lets you boost abilities is a complex action, not the drain itself. That is after all what was being discussed up to that point. :)