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JTNLANGE
post Aug 29 2006, 07:16 PM
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I have a curious question. When I run a campaign I usually roll for the intricate stuff, i.e. hacking, combat, rigging and the like, but i usually roleplay the contact info. I will go by how they ask for the info or treat the contact as to how they get their info. I also roleplay the first meeting and negotiating of the price. If it is not to outrageous and they make a good argument i usually let them up the price. Does anyone play this way or are the rolls the most important. I guess it all depends on the group. My group likes it that way and it actually speeds it up a little instead of waiting on rolls for stuff that is really dependant on how the character acts as opposed to the using of a tool or such.


Trevor
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GrinderTheTroll
post Aug 29 2006, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE (JTNLANGE)
I have a curious question. When I run a campaign I usually roll for the intricate stuff, i.e. hacking, combat, rigging and the like, but i usually roleplay the contact info. I will go by how they ask for the info or treat the contact as to how they get their info. I also roleplay the first meeting and negotiating of the price. If it is not to outrageous and they make a good argument i usually let them up the price. Does anyone play this way or are the rolls the most important. I guess it all depends on the group. My group likes it that way and it actually speeds it up a little instead of waiting on rolls for stuff that is really dependant on how the character acts as opposed to the using of a tool or such.


Trevor

My players like to roll d'em bones!!

We roleplay although admittadly, we enjoy the thundering sound of dice when we've given up and it's more rare for us to roleplay instead of rollplay.
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eidolon
post Aug 29 2006, 07:30 PM
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A mixture. Roleplaying can and does add modifiers to your rolls in my games.
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Backgammon
post Aug 29 2006, 07:32 PM
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Right. I'm all for roleplaying as much as possible, but when it comes down to the Face negociating his way out of 3 guns pointed at his head, it's the CHARACTER than has Negociation 6, not the player. You gotta know when to let the dice do the talking.
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Demerzel
post Aug 29 2006, 07:45 PM
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My preferance is the character has to earn the die roll. Saying, "I negotiate" is going to confuse the hell out of a Johnson. Give me a story, make it worthy, it does not have to be great. Then you earn the ability to roll your negotiation/con/etc.

For example:

GM: The Johnson says, "Given your reputation as capable operators, my employer is willing to offer you 3,000 :nuyen: for each of your team members. That's 15,000 :nuyen, and a fair offer."

Player: Well look, this is a more serious job than you're leading on. I know a little about this facility and they'll never have security as ligh as you're implying. You have to know that this will cost you more than 15 large to get done. Now if you should offer us 20, we may be able to accomidate your requests."

GM: Okay, roll your negotiation.

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Smokeskin
post Aug 29 2006, 08:32 PM
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Social skills are just like any other skill.

The character with all the combat skills - if the player doesn't have a clue about tactics, he's going to do little good.

The hacker - if the player can't figure out what to hack and when and how to go about it, he won't produce results.

The face - if the player can't come up with some reasonable arguments, he'll get his pants negotiated off. Just like the samurai who finds good cover gets advantages, if the face presents good arguments he gets modifiers to the roll.

In the end, they all have to roll their dice to evaluate the effects of their actions though.
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thephoenix
post Aug 29 2006, 08:34 PM
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I prefer actual roleplaying to dice rolling for everything. It allows the players to be more creative.
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deek
post Aug 29 2006, 08:38 PM
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I'm pretty much in the camp of roleplaying most communication, but will sometimes end up with rolling it out when neither side is overly convincing. But, that is not a hard-fast rule...for a lot of stuff, I don't like the dice getting in the way and my players are cool with that. I certainly just don't have players call out that they are negotiating and get a roll...then need to argue/debate and if they are good, I'll give it to them...if just ok, then we'll go to the rolls...

Now, that is all assuming they are roleplaying within the bounds of their character...someone with 1 negotiation, will likely have to roll even with a great argument, but I give more leeway with the higher skills...
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Smokeskin
post Aug 29 2006, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (thephoenix)
I prefer actual roleplaying to dice rolling for everything. It allows the players to be more creative.

Does that mean it's pointless to choose social skills in your game?
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Moon-Hawk
post Aug 29 2006, 08:43 PM
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In my game, a social situation gets some roleplaying, which then gives a bonus or penalty to the social roll.
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thephoenix
post Aug 29 2006, 08:44 PM
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No. I might require you to roll dice to see how well you end up negotiating, but you should at least have an idea as to how your going to go about it. Social skills are important.
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deek
post Aug 29 2006, 08:50 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin)
QUOTE (thephoenix @ Aug 29 2006, 10:34 PM)
I prefer actual roleplaying to dice rolling for everything. It allows the players to be more creative.

Does that mean it's pointless to choose social skills in your game?

In my games, they are important, but moreso as a guide to how to roleplay. I mean, someone with no social skills, shouldn't be trying to talk their way out of everything...if they are, then they are ignoring their character and roleplaying poorly...

You need to have the skills and that should model how the character is played...and then I will sprinkle in some rolls, but I would rather have my players roleplaying...there's enough dice rolling with combat, hacking and magic, so it really gives our games a good flow...
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Kyoto Kid
post Aug 29 2006, 09:14 PM
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...had an interesting outcome to one of the encounters in On The Run where a bit of spontaneous in character rollplay defused a potential combat situation.

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thephoenix
post Aug 29 2006, 09:25 PM
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I think its always fun when you take the time to plan an awesome combat situation and then the players find a way around the combat.
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Critias
post Aug 30 2006, 04:33 AM
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It's not like the two are mutually exclusive.
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SL James
post Aug 30 2006, 04:36 AM
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Except on rpg.net.
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ShadowDragon
post Aug 30 2006, 08:45 AM
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I let the players roleplay as far as they can get (which can get really funny lol). If they get stuck, but did ok, they roll the dice. If they roleplay well enough, they still have to roll eventually, but they might get some bonus dice.

I don't think it's fair to combat PCs for players to be able to roleplay through every social interaction. Why would anyone spend points on social skills when they're a good roleplayer? Though my group's current face would be in trouble if his PC didn't have those social skills lol But at least he tries.

Also if a player says something particularly stupid (which happens often lmao), I'll sometimes let them make an etiquette check to correct their blunder.
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silhouette
post Aug 30 2006, 09:40 AM
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role play contacts and then if you need to know "how good" you did e.g. negotiation, it comes to dice.

So a mix.
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mintcar
post Aug 30 2006, 11:17 AM
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I used to be very strictly a roleplaying kind of GM. I used to frown upon rolling for social skills at all, as that was supposed to be played out instead, with the stats as a guideline like Deek said. But now I've used dice rolls for just about everything for years. It's just more fun and less demanding. I still prefer to improvise how dice rolls are made though. I only follow the rules to the best of my ability and without holding up the game with too much going through the books. (Something that was very hard to do in SR3 when missing a modifier would determine the outcome of a fight, but SR4 has come with my salvation hooray!).
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Critias
post Aug 30 2006, 11:27 AM
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I think the best way to handle that (die rolls for social situations) is to role play it out as best as possible (using stats for a guide), and then offer a modifier based on quality of the RP. That way even the most shy, least talkative, most socially inept booger in the world can still try playing a Face once or twice and do okay, but those who enjoy (and are capable of) RPing that sort of thing out still get rewarded for putting forth the effort, etc.
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Aug 30 2006, 11:35 AM
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Hm... in the games I run, facts offer modifiers, nice descriptions don't - no matter if it's combat or social interaction.
Roleplay is assumed as the bare minimum, and impressive RP is rewarded with extra karma - but that doesn't change the fact that the outcome is decided by the numbers.
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Tekumel
post Aug 30 2006, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin)
QUOTE (thephoenix @ Aug 29 2006, 10:34 PM)
I prefer actual roleplaying to dice rolling for everything. It allows the players to be more creative.

Does that mean it's pointless to choose social skills in your game?

Social rolls in this case could become something of a "guideline" for the NPC's reaction to the character. No matter how much you RP out a situation, there's little stuff that's not gonna come across. The character's body language, intimidation factor of being 9' tall, covered in dermal armor, with a giant cyber-arm wielding a heavily modified SMG, or the simple knowledge that if he really wanted the PC could cremate you with a wink & a nod.

If a conversation sparks up & gets going good, I say roleplay it to the fullest extent. If there's no mojo behind it, get a good basis (at least enough to decide if the character's on a line that'll give him any bonuses or penalties), then roll dem bones.
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Firewall
post Aug 30 2006, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE (thephoenix)
No. I might require you to roll dice to see how well you end up negotiating, but you should at least have an idea as to how your going to go about it. Social skills are important.

Good roleplay gets karma in my games. No dice-bonus, just karma which can later buy an upgraded skill if you want.

To me, the social roll defines how well you function with the skill, the way you roleplay it defines how you screw it up or how you do it. So, a glitch on 'con' is what the player has to work with. "No, really, I have a card for this club but it is from before I goblinised. Honest..." Six successes on con might be "Sorry, my card is in my other jacket but Jimbo knows me. *waves to a random client*" but with such conviction that the person you wave to waves back. Of course, the troll on the door might still get seven successes to see through the con, but you know you could not have done much better.
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Bira
post Aug 30 2006, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin)
The character with all the combat skills - if the player doesn't have a clue about tactics, he's going to do little good.

The hacker - if the player can't figure out what to hack and when and how to go about it, he won't produce results.

The face - if the player can't come up with some reasonable arguments, he'll get his pants negotiated off. Just like the samurai who finds good cover gets advantages, if the face presents good arguments he gets modifiers to the roll.

That sounds a bit backwards to me.

A character with all the appropriate skills to do a certain task knows a lot more than the player could about it. The character would know what's the smart thing to do, even if the player wouldn't.

For me, it would make sense for the GM to tell the player what's a good idea and what isn't, if his character is skilled in that area. In time, the player will learn this stuff and won't need prompting anymore.

If you let an inexperienced player make lots of stupid mistakes even tough his character has the skills to do better, you're being a bad GM, and killing any interest the player might have for the game.

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lorechaser
post Aug 30 2006, 02:35 PM
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It's a hard balance to hit.

I am a very fine example of the player that is less experienced that his characters. I can't make tactical decisions. And I can't diplomatize to save my life - I end up saying dumb things, and just glaring at my DM.

I can bluff like a mofo, and I can make a character that can punch holes in a Troll Sam. But I'd like to occasionally play a diplomatic character, not a con, or a smart combatant, rather than a straight up smasher.

I have two choices:

1. Do a subpar job - play a face, or a tactical guy. And negotiate badly, or make bad plans. I'm not a big fan of this. Sure, I may learn eventually. But probably not. "Okay, X doesn't work. Y doesn't work. Z doesn't work. Maybe A?" when I'm looking for "XXyZssayA" isn't gonna help. And I'm getting frustrated, and defaulting back to, you guessed it, the smasher.

2. Get bonuses from the rolls. If my GM is good (and mine usually are), I'll posit a plan. My GM knows that I have a character that is likely to know a better plan. So as I posit, he'll say "You also realize that going in by that route is likely to cause an alarm. Maybe the sewers would be better." And then I incorporate that in to my new plan. After a bit, I have a good plan, and it works. Now I have a *good* example. Same way with negotiating. "I tell him I'll eat his spleen if he doesn't give me the money." "You're pretty sure that he's not going to respond to threats very well." "Oh. Well then, I ask about his sick mother." "She's fine, thanks. That's nice of you for asking. Maybe I can spare a couple more Nuyen...."

So I don't think I should simply roll dice and get a plan from the GM. But the GM needs to guide my plans, or my conversations.

And:

QUOTE
The character's body language, intimidation factor of being 9' tall, covered in dermal armor, with a giant cyber-arm wielding a heavily modified SMG, or the simple knowledge that if he really wanted the PC could cremate you with a wink & a nod.


Those are all entirely beyond the social skill system. While I understand that RP is good, I can build a combat wombat with 0 social skills (hell, I can take uncouth on top of it), and then say "Yeah, I'm a bad talker. But I'm a huge troll, and my dermal armor is obvious, and I have my White Knight pointed at his brainpan." If the GM gives me the same result someone with 5 points in Intimidate and 4 in Charisma gets, then yeah, point and laugh at the guy spending points.

I can talk my way into anything. It's why you can't use RP reasons to justify rules abuses. If you're gonna let me play a Wendigo as a starting PC if I have a good RP reason, you can bet you'll get a novella explaining the angst and pain I had growing up among the Salish as an Ork, and then a gripping discussion of my attempt to have a Vision Quest to fit in, which lead to a chance encounter with a ravenous Wendigo, just as my mentor spirit arrived to guide me. The Wendigo was wounded from fighting a zombie bear, and near death, so I was heroically able to slay it. Then my mentor spirit, being the Adversary, knew that I was destined to be an outcast. His fickle sense of humor guided the slain Wendigo spirit in to my body, and I returned to be a true outcast. I still mourn the deaths of the noble tribe that sheltered me, and I run to try and earn enough money to buy a monument worthy of their honor.

What were those stat mods again?


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