 Fighting With Two Weapons, The kind without triggers |
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 Aug 30 2006, 07:52 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 14-February 06 Member No.: 8,267  |
A quick scan of my core book yielded nothing, and a scan of this forum did the same, so here's my question:
One of my players is very anxious to look cool and wield dual swords in melee combat. Theoretically, it is difficult to fight effectively (untrained, at least) with two weapons, and several other systems simulate this in some way with various penalties. Does SR4 have any published modifiers or rules for such a thing? If not, does anybody have any effective houserules? |
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Aug 30 2006, 09:03 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 393 Joined: 20-June 06 Member No.: 8,754 |
It's in there. Check page 141, 142 and 77. It's geared toward guns, but the same rules should apply to melee.
Basically without the ambidextrous quality, your offhand takes a -2 penalty. With or without it, you split your dice pool. I houserule that smart links work with one gun instead of no gun while two gun shooting. |
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Aug 30 2006, 09:39 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 13 Joined: 6-July 06 From: Reynoldsburg, OH Member No.: 8,843 |
I don't have a book at hand to reference, but wouldn't the +2 dice bonus for smartguns also get split normally, provided they are both smartlinked? |
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Aug 30 2006, 10:08 AM
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#4
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
No. It's a ranged combat modifier, and the very mechanic is completly different. Splitting dicepool in melee occurs when attacking multiple targets.
Right now, it hasn't. The easiest way is to give Bonus dice, like back in CC: +(Weapon Skill (-2 if not Ambidexterous))/2 |
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Aug 30 2006, 01:21 PM
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#5
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,131 |
We have been using the split the dice pool for mellee combat.. that rule seems to apply to all combo actions.. even when trying to cast 2 spells at once you split your dice between the spells. With Mellee you would give your -2d penalty to your off hand.
Our group also uses a house rule that if you have a smart gun you can only use it on one of your guns not both. So if you used it in your off hand weapon you could effectively cancel out the minus 2d penalty with your smart gun. We have found that using 2 weapons at once is good against your common thugs but against skilled opponents it is not as effective. Here is a modifier you can also use though. The first strike your opponent gets his normal defense against. However the 2nd weapon you hit with he gets a minus 1d to his defense as he is being overwhelmed. Just like if he was fighting mulitple opponents. |
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Aug 30 2006, 02:11 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Cyber: That's not even a houserule (the defense penalties).
Your defense is reduced by one for each attack you've defended against. So if I'm splitting my pool to make two attacks, you're getting a -1 on the 2nd.... |
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Aug 30 2006, 05:12 PM
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#7
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
This is about the 4th (at least) thread asking the same question about "What to do about using 2 melee weapons?" which means there are at least 400 different opinions about it.
SR4 didn't quite complete the loop on this so it's house rules for dual-melee weapons for now. |
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Aug 30 2006, 06:16 PM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
SR4 says absolutely nothing about using two melee weapons at once. We might see rules for it in Arsenal, but for now I'd stick with "pick the weapon you want to use, make the strike with it."
If you absolutely must have an advantage from your offhand weapon, consider adding it's reach, or adding the +1 "teamwork" bonus. |
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Aug 30 2006, 06:32 PM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 14-February 06 Member No.: 8,267 |
I was sort of hoping for a mechanic that allows a two-weapon attack against a single opponent to be resolved as a single attack test. I suppose splitting the pool and resolving each arm as a seperate attack will work well enough, though, and it is consistent with the rest of the rules. Thanks for the help, everyone. EDIT:
I wasn't so much worried about an advantage as a balanced mechanic that makes it better than one-weapon fighting in some situations and worse in others. The last thing I need is for all my players to go Drizzt Do'Urden on me, so I was hoping to not make two-weapon fighting always more powerful than normal melee. It sounds like splitting the dice pool will give me what I was looking for. |
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Aug 30 2006, 07:35 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
That's a step up from the standard rule. The standard rule is if you're two-pistol fighting with 2 smartlink guns, you don't get smartlink bonus dice and split the remaining dice pool. |
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Aug 31 2006, 12:49 AM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Two-weapon fighting already DOES have an advantage - if you are good enough to drop one of your foes with only half of your dice pool, you can take people out twice as fast.
You have to be VERY good to benefit from this advantage, but it is present. However, as in reality, most of the time it is far more efficient to use one weapon in both hands. |
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Aug 31 2006, 03:41 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 76 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,131 |
That is correct. If you are very skilled it will help you drop semi skilled opponents very quickly. However facing off against someone with good skill and a high reaction you will find out very quickly its probably best to use one weapon... With the rules the way they are for multi weapon fighting. It keeps it balanced that way you dont have people going Duel wielding for every type of encounter. Heres one thing I want to know. ?hat is the advantage of having a pair of cyberclaws?... absolutely nothing. In 3rd edition if you used a pair of them you got a damage boost... Wonder why they didnt do the same thing in 4th edition? |
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Aug 31 2006, 12:54 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Didn't we just cover this? The advantage of having a pair of cyberclaws is that you have the potential to defeat two opponents in a round rather than one. You have to be very good for this to work, though. |
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Aug 31 2006, 01:09 PM
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#14
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,925 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 948 |
Well, if you are good enough with a split pool you get two attacks instead of one in close combat, that's bonus enought. |
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Aug 31 2006, 03:53 PM
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#15
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Target Group: Members Posts: 51 Joined: 9-August 06 Member No.: 9,063 |
Just a note: You do not need two weapons to be able to split you dice pool to attack multiple opponents, it's a standard mechanic of melee combat.
So RAW, there is zero advantage to fighting with two identical weapons in melee, dice wise. The die based advantages I've found so far are: you can switch up attacks between say a mono sword and a stun baton without needing to sheath and then draw a new weapon; you still have a weapon if you get one shot/ knocked out of your hand; and you can have a melee weapon in one hand and a ranged weapon in the other for greater versatility. But it would be nice if there were some die based advantage to fighting with two weapons in melee. I'd personally make it a +1-3 die bonus to parry checks, probably 2 + Reach, if wielding two melee weapons. Just wanted to get in my two cents. |
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Aug 31 2006, 05:23 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Exactly the case. My arguement has been, it's easier to hurt someone when swinging around 2 sharp things instead of 1 sharp thing. |
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Aug 31 2006, 06:47 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
If a PC wanted to wield two melee weapon, I'd just tell him to take it as a a specialization in Blade (Two weapon).
So he gets +2 dice when wielding two weapons. Damage are based on the largest weapon. Otherwise it's just as if he was using a single weapon and basically he's fighting with two weapons for flavor. No need for the ambidexterity quality except for situation when the PC has to fight using only his off-hand for some reason (In which case he'd lose the +2 and suffer -2 if he doesn't ambidexterity). Learning to fight with a main gauche in your off-hand and a rapier in the right hand doesn't make you ambidextrous. It's just as mundane an achievement as learning to catch a ball in your left hand and throw it with your right hand. Or throwing a left hook when you are a right handed boxer. Of course, a PC who takes a specialization in a single weapon has the same +2. And that specific weapon would be twinked out. But if you have (Two Weapon) as a specialization you can wield any two blode and still get your bonus so it evens out in the long run. Beside, fighting with two weapons isn't clearly superior two wielding one so it shouldn't become too enticing an option beyond the wow factor. |
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Aug 31 2006, 07:15 PM
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#18
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
You'd think. But it's really not the case in practice. Unless you're really good at it, the second weapon either sits there forgotten, or the person tries to use both, and ends up doing two attacks badly, rather than one good. As much as I hate to say it, I have experience with this. I've done some research on it (I'm a twf (two weapon fighting) wonk from my DnD days). Typically, even the best fencers only used the second weapon as a parrying weapon. That's why the rapier/main-gauche combination came about. The main-gauche was rarely used to stab, mostly to catch a weapon, and possibly break it. If anything, it might be used for a hilt strike, which you could also do with your fist. I've also spent time in "padded stick" world. Wherein I would pad sticks, and try to beat up other people with padded sticks. Kinda like SCA, but without the cool value. In those cases, there was one dude that could really use two weapons effectively. And he very much could. Everyone else tried, but ended up just slowing themselves down, and going back to one big weapon, or a shield. Here's an analogy. You need to write your name on two pieces of paper. Are you better off writing it twice with your right hand, or at the same time, one with each hand? |
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Aug 31 2006, 07:33 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
If you are well trained, you are can be proficient with both hands equally. A well trained martial artist would have no problem using 2 melee weapons at once wether it be 2 fists, 2 legs or some combination of all and other parts. |
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Aug 31 2006, 07:54 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Agreed.
However, the rules don't really include any provisions for that beyond the Ambidexterity quality. I think the idea of allowing a spec in "Two weapons" is really the best solution. It allows you to pick between a combat axe, or two Katanas. I'd even be willing to allow the teamwork rule in that case, so that you can use a combat axe in 2 hands for more damage, or two katanas for a +1 to hit, but lower damage. |
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Aug 31 2006, 07:54 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Using two fist is a poor analogy to using two weapons. Historically, two weapon fighting have been very rare. It's something you mostly see at martial arts demonstration and in cool movies. It's not very practical in real life and death fight. Rapier / Main gauche combos in Renaissance Europe are probably the most widespread incidence of TWF observed in history and the Main Gauche was used more like a buckler than like a weapon so in truth it wasn't very much like the TWF most people imagine. Against an armored opponent, using two swords instead one sword with both hand would usually result with you being unable to penetrate the armor with either swords, a highly undesirable turn of event. It can be argued though that SR's ultra sharp and light sword, the scarcity of hard armor and the existence of strenght augmentation would lead to TWF being more practical. In that sense, I ain't against TWF in SR. But in RL and even more so in the historical periods where sword were used, TWF was very rare. |
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Aug 31 2006, 08:42 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I disagree. Fists are weapons just of the blunt variety. If you learn how to use them, they are very effective.
This might be true but it makes for good RPG action! |
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Aug 31 2006, 08:51 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,333 Joined: 19-August 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9,168 |
Hmmm.
You do make a good point about the monofilament sword, etc. Really, fighting with two monofilament swords (since they don't, iirc, really have a specific cutting edge) would be more akin to something like Escrima fighting (two stick fighting). I think if you're going to give TWF a real benefit, you should follow the DnD example, and make it a quality, or even a skill on it's own, under combat. |
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Aug 31 2006, 09:06 PM
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#24
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,011 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Montréal, QC, Canada Member No.: 7,087 |
Unless you are comparing that to fighting with two knife, it is very different. There ain't much in common between fistfighting and, say, using effectively a Daisho. And yes, it's fun for RPG. It shouldn't be penalized to match historic use but then again shouldn't be made into the supreme fighting style. That's why I just suggest making a specialization. If you are going to pay BP for a quality it could mean an extra dice for melee for 5 BP quality if wielding two weapon. But no more than that. |
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Aug 31 2006, 09:09 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Give me an historic quarterstaff against most two weapon fighters all the time :P.
I probably will use Charon's idea until two weapons rules are published. |
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