 Paydata Points, Worst rules ever written? |
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 Aug 30 2006, 09:03 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414  |
I'm having some real issues with the paydata rules as written in Matrix:
Here is a proposed fix - please let me know what you think.
I know this is a little cumbersome to handle at the gaming table, but I'm writing it into a Matrix utility I'm putting together for GMs so it will all be handled automatically for you. What I'm really asking for is feedback on the equation I put together. Final base values for a Blue-5 system are :nuyen: 375 to :nuyen: 625, while a Red-12 system would have files worth :nuyen: 11,700 to :nuyen: 19,500. The average remains around :nuyen: 5,000, but you won't get rich cracking Blue systems, and risking your ass in a Red system has a higher payoff. |
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Aug 30 2006, 09:10 PM
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#2
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Yeah, here's the logic: If you're lazy enough that you're using that rule rather than making your game make sense, you deserve a lame rule. :) Seriously though, if you're using that rule, you probably don't know enough about the game for it to seem wonky. (You is general there, not "you".)
You're mis-interpreting. It means if you steal program A, but you start farming it out to everybody with a nuyen in their pocket, eventually you'll reach market saturation and the price will decline as availability goes up. Meaning that the last bit of your statement is correct.
I trout-slap any player that tries to use lame mechanical means to make tons of money and upset the game balance, be those means decking into bank accounts, looting bodies, or anything else. All that warning is there for is to let new GMs know that they shouldn't just let the decker amass large amounts of wealth willy-nilly while the rest of the team stays poor, thus ruining the game. Don't take it so personally. |
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Aug 30 2006, 09:23 PM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Hey, hey. Looting bodies is a God-given right. If stealing everything off of a rapidly cooling corpse is wrong, I DON'T WANNA BE RIGHT!
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Aug 30 2006, 09:26 PM
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#4
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...Makes perfect sense that tougher systems (higher risk) should bring greater rewards.
I can see using the formula to help set the base value of a Johnson's offer for a datasteal job (of course adjusted by Negotiation test results). BTW I tend to prefer dealing out 5 kg Sockeye Salmon slaps. They (the players) usually remember it the next time. :silly: |
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Aug 30 2006, 09:37 PM
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#5
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
If you're going to have paydata not related to the run you might as well have real paydata not related to the run. Don't just say "you find 4 points of random paydata" if you wouldn't say "you find 4 points of random firearms" or "you find 4 points of random foci" or "you find 4 points of random drones" or "you find 4 points of random contacts."
On the surface, a hard and fast rule about how much paydata you get from a particular system may seem like a good idea. However, people are idiots; they keep billions of dollars worth of sensitive data on an unsecured laptop. (Yes, I'm refering to the USVA). At the same time, people are anal; they keep their porn triple-encrypted on biometricly locked systems. It is best, in my opinion, for the GM to make the paydata explicit rather than generic, to into the story, and to integrate the process of exploiting it and fencing it into the story. But, if the GM chooses to use those rules then your modifications are certainly superior to the basic rule. |
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Aug 30 2006, 11:38 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
Golden. Sigged.
I agree completely, and we do so in our games (note the reference to emails and design docs in original post). Having a value assigned can help the GM provide flavor & content though neh? The points are a mechanic that I want to hold onto though, for the Locate Paydata operation to function properly. |
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Aug 30 2006, 11:55 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
I really can't understand why GMs dislike PC looting of the dead. Looting by mercenaries is a historical tradition. In medieval times, there were even guys who slunk around battlefields with daggers dispatching the wounded and taking their goodies. It makes no sense that it's okay for a shadowrunner to be mercenary about taking a job but not mercenary when it comes to loot. |
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Aug 31 2006, 12:23 AM
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#8
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i'd bring the Security Code Modifier down, DiGriz. in my experience, a good starting-level hacker can in-and-out any reasonably-rated system (anything up to, say, Security Value 10) without setting off any IC, or at least without setting off any IC he can't hide from long enough to get his job done. it's when the hacker actually has to stick around (overwatch, for instance) that Security Code becomes important. if a decker's hitting a host solely for the paydata, he can rob Orange-10s and Red-10s all day as easily as he'd rob Blue-10 and Green-10, at which point you're back to your original problem. |
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Aug 31 2006, 12:47 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 1-July 02 From: Santa Maria, CA Member No.: 2,921 |
Personally, I don't think that stealing weapons, ammo, credsticks, armor, and the like off of someone you just geeked is too terribly wrong. I think reselling the cyberware and bioware from a body is questionable. |
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Aug 31 2006, 12:51 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
I'd say somrthing, but you already said it. So, this post is pretty much worthless. |
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Aug 31 2006, 01:15 AM
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#11
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
:grinbig: |
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Aug 31 2006, 02:08 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Seriously, compared to the SR3 choke rules? These are nothing.
Because in most cases, it's extremely unprofessional and dangerous. Modern battles don't have distinct beginnings and endings, and modern battlefields don't have clearly defined borders. Most runs involve a vastly inferior force. Speed, mobility, and adaptability are you only assets. Stopping to pick up guns to sell slows you down, weighs you down, and diverts you from your objective. Worse, it's potentially an avenue of evidence that can be traced back to you. And all this for a few hundred nuyen? Taking something expensive and easy if the opportunity presents itself is one thing; stopping to loot pistols and vests from dead guards is something that happens in bad videogames. |
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Aug 31 2006, 04:39 AM
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#13
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
If the players spend too much time looting, let them suffer logical, in-game consequences for it. Like, a security response.
If they close down all the external security feeds, and geek everyone in the place, and prevent any cries for help, then yes, they have all the right in the world to strip the guards down to the skivvies (or further). And as for your PayData rule, it's not bad. It would help if you added some sort of easy to use way to determine what was found - and you could make this useful to the decker directly. Such as finding a smaller-than-normal sized experimental utility amongst his finds, that he can keep a copy of for himself. If he's smart, he won't just start selling it, either - such prototypes are handy in fewer hands, after all. |
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Aug 31 2006, 04:46 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Exactly. If the PCs loot at an inappropriate time and weigh themselves down with AKs so they can't escape they should suffer logical in game consequences. I don't see why the GM should get upset about it out-of-game anymore than he gets upset if a player makes a stupid move one turn by not allocating dice to spell defense or using his combat pool in a dangerous way. |
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Aug 31 2006, 05:23 AM
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#15
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
In this case, GMs likely find it annoying because it almost always belies a fundamentally different mentality: the GM wants to run something realistic (not necessarily in terms of mechanics, but at least in terms of characters, motivations, consequences, etc; basically, actual roleplaying) while the player wants to play Everquest. That's bound to cause problems.
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Aug 31 2006, 01:38 PM
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#16
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Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
I cannot agree that these are the worst rules ever written. I bought 2nd ed Rigger Black Book.
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Aug 31 2006, 02:16 PM
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#17
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Exactly. Then trout-slap the player. ;) And for the record, yes, swiping that guard's MP-5 after downing him on your way out the door when there's no active threat? Cool. Thinking I'm going to let you harvest the skillwires out of every body you drop? Trout-slap.
Precisely. |
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Sep 1 2006, 07:19 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 16-October 03 Member No.: 5,725 |
I can't explain it. I can speculate that the table was invented without widespread playtesting, but I don't know that. The given rules seem unreasonable to me.
Such is life in a dystopian future . . . and in most Swords & Sorcery Fantasy, too. If a decker flashes excessive cred in the wrong places, he/she will suffer the consequences from certain other types of predators. Of course, it may be that the decker will geek them when they come. If a decker never flashes cred anywhere in any amount, well, they're often viewed as shut-ins. If a decker buys new expensive systems A, B, C, D, and E from fixers V and W, smuggler X, fence Y, and black market rep Z, all on Tuesday, and then does it all over again on each of the following three weeks, news will start to accumulate that systems are being vacuumed up off the streets. Buying everything through one supplier can be just as bad, as that one person will know everything about your illegal buying habits. Being ultra-paranoid about who buying is done from, when, and just how much you pay in largish tips beyond the purchase price to keep people's mouth's shut can reduce this problem. Eventually it will be clear who is doing it. Someone is going to wonder where all that nuyen is coming from. Exactly what happens as a result depends on who finds out and what they want. Perhaps the decker is attacked in the middle of the night, perhaps the decker is blackmailed into working as a deniable asset for milk, cookies, and expenses. Who knows? This is the stuff of life for runners.
People who have money become the targets of those who don't. This is a fact of life today that would be triply true in Shadowrun. However, if such attempts fail spectacularly, then others might think twice about trying it themselves. A smart decker might even orchestrate a fake attempt, defeat it, and let the news circulate that it isn't a good idea.
If players brings down problems upon themselves, and then get upset at the consequences, that's not the GM's fault. Now, if a player were to cover their tracks at all stages, never leaving evidence behind, never exposing themselves at any stage (yeah, right, kind of difficult to do in 2050+), and problems still showed up . . . guess what? It's Shadowrun. Crazy stuff happens and GMs may know where a player messed up when the player thought otherwise. One random twelve year-old running the Matrix happens to catch a flash of a runner exiting a corp site, and posts this "cool find" to his Matrix site; who knows who got a hold of that and put two and two together? It's effectively impossible to distinguish this from actual GM retaliation. In any event, as far as I know, it's generally regarded as the GM's purview to inflict problems on players, and this isn't the My Little Pony RPG.
Getting the whole story after the game from your friend (I'm assuming you're gaming with your friend) could be an alternative strategy.
Well, I would view it along the lines of the fictional game world attempting to work out its laws, criminal justice system, and criminal acitivy; and the GM attempting to run a realistic world. If players are doing illegal things in the game world, then the people who make it their job to stop illegal things from happening, as well as those who like to pursue their own illegal activities, will try and take their opportunities where they can.
My apologies, but this is a little too complex for me to use, even though it does appear to represent as much detail as accurately as possible. -------------------------------------------------------- I just have to comment that finding any paydata in Blue systems in any game I ran would be extremely unlikely, regardless of the rules in mat.49-51. The following is closer to my view:
Yes, I do think that as the risk goes up, the size of the data packet increases (the best data is often either extensive technical details or massive amounts of records). * I almost want to say that TNs for finding paydata on Green systems are increased by at least +2. |
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Sep 1 2006, 07:39 PM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Sometimes when the party starts robbing the dead it's not a sign of an Everquest mentality. Sometimes they do it because they don't feel they're making enough money for the run. Most groups that make the amount they feel they're worth dont bother with the extra 2,000 they can get by selling a few guns.
Also, if the gear you put them up against is tweaked out no recoil assault rifles, APDS, and hardened armor you can almost bet they'll want to take it. Rare stuff is always at a premium whether you keep it yourself or sell it. Saying that taking valuable things isn't realistic seems to me to indicate someone whose idea of what is "realistic" doesn't quite jibe. People who steal and murder for money can probably be expected to steal from the people they murder. By all means have realistic in game consequences, but just smacking them around because they've offended your Shadowrunner aeshetics is petty and immature. If you really don't want them thinking about looting, have average gear on the opposition and pay them enough so they don't feel they have to. |
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Sep 1 2006, 07:53 PM
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#20
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ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Not always...but often. And as far as "getting paid what they're worth" goes, in a realistic game, a new team pulling down milk runs isn't going to make what a decades-experienced assassin is making. But players used to being the assassin, or ones with ridiculous expectations can quickly kill a game with the nonsensical "let's stand in an alley after gunning down this corp Johnson and discuss what we can get for his cyber eyes" scenario.
As per the usual, you have to look at the specific game situation to have any idea how to handle it, or to have a sense of how well a GM is handling things. Discussing it just "in theory" only leads to a bunch of arguments, as everyone's idea of "the correct way" is different. |
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Sep 2 2006, 07:31 AM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
Street crime is one thing, repeatedly mugging one character to the point where muggers are on a first name basis is Munchkin GM Bullshit.
No, it's not too hard to tell the difference. Was there a 12 year old witness who saw you once? Or is there a 12 year old witness(or something similar) every goddamned time?
It's also the GM's responsibility to be fair. Unreasonably punishing any character for taking the initiative and trying to make some extra money (remember - this is what shadowrunners do: Crime for Money) is bad GMing. I would leave...
Why bother? The GM can come up with any damned thing he wants and pretend it's backstory. The bottom line is that it's Metagaming, and while it's cheap on the part of a player, it's inexcusable on the part of a GM.
Absolutely! But the GM handing those NPCs the opportunities on a silver platter and justifying it later as backstory is Munchkin Metagaming GM Bullsh.... Oh fuck it. I guess this is just another of those playstyle issues that come up around here. I'm glad you enjoy the game, but I wouldn't put up with those types of shenanigans and I'm glad I don't have to. |
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Sep 2 2006, 08:04 AM
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#22
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
So... bitter about something?
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Sep 2 2006, 08:35 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
I guess I'm just a little cranky. Thanks for your concern though - you're a good friend.
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Sep 2 2006, 08:45 AM
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#24
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
You're missing the point. You're projecting your personal experiences on a debate that quite honestly doesn't have much to do with your problems. I'm sorry if that sounds rough, but no one's arguing that it's a good idea for the GM to railroad his players and make up unrealistic problems in order to make you act like he thinks you should. But that cuts both ways. Players who ignore the real consequences of playing Everquest in real life are going to get what they asked for good and hard, because that's what happens to people like that.
But everyone else is talking about making sure everyone is playing the same game. You're just talking about having a shitty GM, and whether that shitty GM laughs at people when they don't try and sell rat entrails and Predators from everything they kill or rapes his players when they don't copy everything that happened in Heat, you're not, you know, going to need to win hearts and minds here. |
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Sep 2 2006, 10:12 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 257 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,414 |
Whoa there Friend! Why are you getting all hostile on me now? Was the concern you so thoughtfully expressed earlier merely pretense? I feel so betrayed...
Is that what we were talking about? I seem to recall starting this thread for the express purpose of discussing shitty GMing (specifically the shitty GMing encouraged in the Matrix sourcebook regarding the mugging of deckers who attempt to make some extra money) and I continued to post to that topic. In the future, I will try to refrain from steering a hijacked thread back towards the original topic. YOUR HEARTS AND MINDS WILL BE MINE!!! |
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