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> Whats a good amount of nuyen
thephoenix
post Aug 31 2006, 11:12 PM
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I'm just wondering how much players should get paid per run on average.
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the_dunner
post Aug 31 2006, 11:37 PM
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It depends how long you want the campaign to run, and how many runs you let the PCs go through before they need to make another lifestyle payment. It also depends on how many hidden expenses the adventures have. (If they need to spend 5000¥ to get past a critical step in the scenario, then you probably should allow for that when you're budgeting the 'run.)

If you let the team do 4 runs per game month (1/week) and you want them to maintain a low lifestyle, then remember that they need to have 2000¥ in their pockets at the end of the month. So, that's 500¥ minimum profit they need each run.

If your team keeps their operating expenses low (say, 500¥ in supplies and bribes per character) then 1000-1500¥ might be a good way to do it -- if you want a campaign where character growth is pretty slow. If you want character growth faster, then bump it into the 3000-5000¥ range.

If they're a bit less efficient, or are trying to maintain a higher lifestyle, then either of those values need to be bumped up.
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Teulisch
post Sep 1 2006, 02:12 AM
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look at lifestyle costs. look at expeses. add em together. the runners should show at least some profit after the run is done. Their risking their lives in criminal activity for pay. they should get paid well.

the published SR4 adventure, on the run, has base run pay at 10,000, before modification for negotiation. and this is for a 'simple sntach and grab', with a new team of 400 BP shadowrunner straight from chargen.
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Da9iel
post Sep 1 2006, 02:16 AM
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Each!!!???
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ShadowDragon
post Sep 1 2006, 02:36 AM
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10,000 total, not each.

If the PCs are newbies, they should struggle a little to get cash to cover lifestyle and expenses until they get a better rep. But don't make the amount so low that they have to resort to stealing cars to make ends meet.
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Da9iel
post Sep 1 2006, 03:21 AM
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Thank goodness!
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laughingowl
post Sep 1 2006, 04:29 AM
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As a GM this is something I have to very alot.

Really depends on the group.

How much the spend.... (if they live high life style, but not 'munchkin tweak-fest') I am usally more free with money.

Look like you are rich and people tend to expect to pay more......
Look like a bum and people pay less.


Now if the group is the type to try to claim not to spend a penny, and bank their pay roll. I get a little stingier (dont spent money street rep suffers generally) AND I keep a close track of what they do spend on and more importantly what they dont.... (rating 2 fake sin might be fine for the ganger that doesnt leave the barrens... but the player that thought he could fly to Tir ta Nog on it.... /shakes head)
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Crusher Bob
post Sep 1 2006, 05:46 AM
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[repost]
QUOTE

The math for stealing Americars (or whatever) looksl ike this:

There are 4 runners in our all singing, all dancing, car theft ring.
Assume that each stolen car is worth 10K Y.
The characters are able to sell it for 40% value (due to having a long standing connection with the fence, or whatever, I mostly picked this number tomake the math easy).

This means that each stolen car nets each of the team members 1000 Y.

The Atlanta, GA crime statistics say that there were 5,756 motor vehicle thefts in 2004.

Assuming the same number of motor vehicle thefts in 207X and that the team contributes around 1% of this figure, then they would steal around 5 (some rounding here) cars every month, meaning that each team member would get 5K Y a month. For a team of 4 shadowrunners, stealing 5 'basic' cars every month is about as risky as a trip to the local 7-11.

So, any run which would pay out less than 1K Y per runner and carries any risk at all is not worth your time.

Next, we'll cover stealing a 'almost new' sports car:
Assume that the sports car is worth 80K, the team can sell it to the fence at only 25% (hey, sports car parts are harder to move than econo-box parts). This nets each team member 5K Y. For a team of 4 runners, stealing a sports car is still not that risky. So, a run that carries only minor risks (will not involved any shooting, but will involve the acutal commision of crimes) had better pay you at least 5K Y.

For most 'exciting runs' where you might have to commit capital crimes, the price had better go up, up, up.

[/repost]

This means that short milk runs, like 'follow this guy around for a few days' should pay out an absolute minimum of 1000Y after projected expenses.

Medium length runs involving a minimal amount of danger (implant listening devices into this guys automobile + low security office) should pay a min of 5000Y after expenses

A typical run involving breaking into a higly secure location and making off with something will start at 10K and go up from tehre depending on the things like the actual security, the special skills needed by the runner team, the timetable involved, etc.

For a lot of book runs that start something like: "we need you to break into a high secured building guarded by magic/spirits, 10+ armed guards, etc and you go in tonight" the payment had better be 50K+ up front.
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silhouette
post Sep 2 2006, 11:18 AM
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I really don't get the low pays for SR4.
When Shadowrunning is less profitable than ripping off scooters and selling them to a chop shop you surely are not paying enough.

A johnson should be paying for competence, efficiency and silence. Those things should cost money, and lots of it.

Lets say you earn 3500 for a run (each) as people are suggesting why not just steal something and flog it. Burglary carries much lower penalties, has less risk and pays a lot more.

A biker gang has parked their vehicles outside a club. Ripping off a couple of choppers would be worth (even at 25% cost) 6000. Significantly less risk than going anywhere near a corp.


I would have said a difficult run against a decent target for start characters should be worth at least 8-10K each. For more experienced runners a lot more.

*edit I really should have read that last post edit*
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knasser
post Sep 2 2006, 12:34 PM
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Bear in mind that some characters require :nuyen: for development and some characters require karma. Okay, the Samurai can put that karma into useful skills and the mage can put the :nuyen: into useful foci and equipment, but basically, if you have a low-income game where the players are scraping around to cover their lifestyle costs, but the karma comes in at the usual pace, you're going to have samurai with Wired Reflexes I and magicians initiated up the wazoo.

I like a gritty and realistic game, but that doesn't preclude players maintaining a good lifestyle. Heck - the wages of Sin come on unmarked credsticks, you know?
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Serbitar
post Sep 2 2006, 01:20 PM
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I have a chapter about that in my SGP (p. 14-15) which can act a s a guideline.

I personally recommend a karma to Nyen ratio of about 1: 1500, and thus make the typical run (3 evenings 5 hours real time each) 10 karma and 15000 Nuyen per player.
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thephoenix
post Sep 2 2006, 06:03 PM
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What about games that say last one evening and at most 4hours?
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RainOfSteel
post Sep 2 2006, 06:08 PM
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QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
[repost]
QUOTE

The math for stealing Americars (or whatever) looksl ike this: [...]

[/repost]

[...]

For a lot of book runs that start something like: "we need you to break into a high secured building guarded by magic/spirits, 10+ armed guards, etc and you go in tonight" the payment had better be 50K+ up front.

I referred several friends to read the above, and have gotten a variety of positive responses.

Thanks for posting that! :)
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Serbitar
post Sep 2 2006, 07:31 PM
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QUOTE (thephoenix)
What about games that say last one evening and at most 4hours?

less ?!
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Conskill
post Sep 2 2006, 08:07 PM
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A Low lifestyle costs 12,000 a year to maintain. Since they're low, I'll assume they have nothing except what's covered in a lifestyle.

If your Shadowrunner is not making over 12k a year, he's better off working as a janitor.

A Middle lifestyle costs 60,000 a year to maintain. I'll call it 62k to add a little overhead for random not-lifestyle-covered purchases.

If your Shadowrunner is not making over 62k a year, he's better off working as a clerk.
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Samaels Ghost
post Sep 2 2006, 11:17 PM
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I think ours made about 300,000 in 2070.

note:I gave them too much. Their characters are all biowared up. Don'd give so much money out.
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FriendoftheDork
post Sep 5 2006, 10:20 PM
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Guys, although 10k per run seems small compared to costs and average wages, remember these guys are probably SINless and can't get a job even as a janitor! Which means stealing stuff, robbery etc. is the only alternative. And the local crime lords might not like freeloaders, at least not the ones not paying sufficent tribute.

Of course they could defend themselves, or even directly fight these groups, but then it might not be that much safer than the typical run to begin with.

And lets not forget that stealing stuff is dangerous if it's worthwhile, and it's typically safer to be given missions where the johnson plans on success, because then you are probably not going too high, upsetting the wrong people (or at least pleasing the right people so it balances out), and the johnsons intel is often pretty good. That way there's less unpleasant suprises (that was dunkelzhan's account?).

Just look at the warrens... where people struggle to make a living through illegal acticities... and the car thieves seldom get rich... just the ones at the top. No mafioso or gang leader is going to get a share of your hard-earned run salary though ;)

That said, the average life of a well-to do clerk or specalist in the corp life is alot better than a shadowrunner. Middle lifestile and no risk is not that bad, or perhaps even high lifestyle. Few would chose shadowrunning rather than this.
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emo samurai
post Sep 5 2006, 10:25 PM
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But the thing is, after a certain point, the professionals in the team, hackers, mages, etc., will find much better ways to make money. Hackers will make programs, and mages will enchant gold and orichalcum.
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Gort
post Sep 6 2006, 04:05 AM
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Yeah, I've paid 15,000 for a missing person job (find my daughter, here is her picture, girl turns out to be caught in the middle of a gang war) and 20,000 for a "stop large gang attacking our retail outlets" job, before bonuses, for a three man team of rookie shadowrunners.

As people have said before, you don't want your runners getting more money from what they loot on the job than what they're getting paid by the Johnson, or it just becomes unrealistic, ESPECIALLY when you consider that the runners are often people with 250,000 worth of cyberware in them, or belong to the fraction of a percent of people who can properly control magical powers.

Shadowrunners are not the people at the bottom of the food chain that FriendoftheDork is describing - they're elite, and their pay should reflect this.
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Conskill
post Sep 6 2006, 05:11 AM
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More accurately, Shadowrunners can be wherever on the food chain the GM wants to start them at. It's entirely possible that a group of thugs fresh out of the Barrens with one tenous contact among the lot of them will call themselves Shadowrunners. The novahot team of elite commandos that just iced an Immortal prince of Tir Tirnagire and got away without a loss will also call themselves Shadowrunners.

Same job description, obviously not on the same pay scale.
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Bull
post Sep 6 2006, 12:48 PM
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QUOTE (Conskill)
More accurately, Shadowrunners can be wherever on the food chain the GM wants to start them at. It's entirely possible that a group of thugs fresh out of the Barrens with one tenous contact among the lot of them will call themselves Shadowrunners. The novahot team of elite commandos that just iced an Immortal prince of Tir Tirnagire and got away without a loss will also call themselves Shadowrunners.

Same job description, obviously not on the same pay scale.

And in SR4, a group of fresh 400 BP characters definately bear a closer resemblance to the former rater than the latter. A very nice change, IMO, from earlier editions where starting characters were all Geniuses, Olympic level atheletes, and Experts in several fields out of teh gate.

Bull
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Rotbart van Dain...
post Sep 6 2006, 01:06 PM
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The last games I ran were targeted at 100K¥ for the team, 10K¥ up front, no bonuses, no expenses - here is a picture and a starting point, go and get it for me.
Why? Pretty simple:
The total payoff was roughly the actual marketprice of the pieces of art they had to aquire.
Paying much less only screams 'cut the deal and look for a better one' - there are many collectors out there.

Basically, it's the market value of the job that dictates payoff, the qualifications of the runners are an implicit necessity... unless you want overqualified runners walking your dog, in which case you will pay the estimated market value of the jobs they are going to miss while working for you.
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Zen Shooter01
post Sep 6 2006, 01:56 PM
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Shadowrunners have in-demand skills, and they should get paid accordingly. A Street Samurai who can kick a Toyota to death can name a high price when an employer is shopping for melee skills. A Hacker who can effortlessly subvert the everyday nodes for four clicks in every direction is someone who can ask for a high salary. So yes, they should be making 5k-15k each per run, when a run is a penetration theft, extraction, assassination, etc.

But.

The market is fairly crowded and those jobs are fairly scarce. The team isn't going to get more than one or two a month.

Also, you can structure a run so that it stretches out over several game sessions ("We want five people killed in five different places in one night"), which slows down the rate at which the players pile up the nuyen.

And you can fill in a lot of time with "day in the life" runs that don't pay a lot of nuyen, like your corporate wageslave contact can't pay, but if you help her get the promotion she'll use her new position to help you in the future. Or your sister and her husband just added to their real estate holdings but, oops, can you help them out with this ghost problem?

Don't forget too that bribes, disposable identities, paying off hackers to delete your criminal record, etc., etc., costs nuyen too.
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FriendoftheDork
post Sep 6 2006, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE (Gort)
Yeah, I've paid 15,000 for a missing person job (find my daughter, here is her picture, girl turns out to be caught in the middle of a gang war) and 20,000 for a "stop large gang attacking our retail outlets" job, before bonuses, for a three man team of rookie shadowrunners.

As people have said before, you don't want your runners getting more money from what they loot on the job than what they're getting paid by the Johnson, or it just becomes unrealistic, ESPECIALLY when you consider that the runners are often people with 250,000 worth of cyberware in them, or belong to the fraction of a percent of people who can properly control magical powers.

Shadowrunners are not the people at the bottom of the food chain that FriendoftheDork is describing - they're elite, and their pay should reflect this.

Well it obviously depends quite alot on the shadowrunners. I've played games starting in the Redmond when we started out alot worse than normal, and with almost no cash at all. I've also played games when I started with 1,000,000 nuyen.

What you get for a job should be determined by your

-current lifestyle

-reputation (street cred)

-contacts

-threat level level

-group competance


Bascially, even the cyberwarrior with 200k worth in cyber and bio might not get much for a job if he's unknown, unfitting, low lifestyle or got the job from a poor contact.

That means he would have to turn down offers if this happens to get good runs, or get a better fixer that realizes his potential and gives him appropriate MR johnsons.

In the beginning, most runners will have to take poor jobs, to get the much valued experience, street cred and contact to work their way into becoming elite. Sure, their skills and gear might make them valuable, but until they're properly tasted they won't be getting their worth. Not the bottom of the food chains (that's the redmond for you), but far from the elite. As long as the team ain't losing out on the runs, they should be fine.
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Dudukain
post Sep 6 2006, 11:29 PM
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You need to make plenty. When you consider the cost of a shadowrun:

-Ammunition[Roughly 100-300 :nuyen: per run]
-Breaking and Entering Gear[Maybe. Thermite gel, climbing kits, etc.]
-Transportation[May not matter that much]
-Medical Fees

And that's just what it costs to run. Consider what they need to be better runners:

-Focuses
-Cyber/Bioware
-New Weaponry
-Faster Transport.

I know. My character is currently doing a bunch of jobs for a mob boss to score a used cargo helicopter to operate a smuggling business.

Factor in all this, and they should be making atleast 2500 :nuyen: per run.
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