 No VCR? |
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 Sep 4 2006, 12:54 AM
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#1
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 15-August 06 Member No.: 9,122  |
Hi folks,
I've been lurking around for a bit reading up on SR4 here on the Forums and was surprised to see that nobody seems to have any problem with the removal of the VCR from the Rigger. I know that a person can rig without in the current version of Shadowrun but it really seems the vehicle rigger has been nerfed in favor of the drone rigger. Has there been any word on if the VCR will be making a comeback in a later book, or is it just a given that a vehicle rigger is just not a awesome a pilot/driver as in the previous editions for some sort of balance reasons? Ironically I was dying to try my hand at a new character type for the new edition, (I usually play Physical Adepts with a stealth focus) only to find that they seem to be no better than anybody else when behind the wheel, only a couple skill points might separate them from the average old lady behind the wheel. Of course I might just not be adapting to the new version very well, have any of you played, or ran for a vehicle rigger in 4? can anybody give me some hints as to maximize the value of a rigger who is not into drones? |
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Sep 4 2006, 01:04 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,537 Joined: 27-August 06 From: Albuquerque NM Member No.: 9,234 |
Still have "Control Rig".
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Sep 4 2006, 01:40 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 451 Joined: 8-May 06 Member No.: 8,533 |
The control rig has an entirely different function now.
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Sep 4 2006, 01:40 AM
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#4
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
As kzt implied, there is still a "Control Rig" which has much of the functionality of the old VCR. It adds a dice pool modifier to the character's Vehicle skills (piloting or Gunnery). And now it's really cheap.
The extra Initiative Passes are now available to anyone with a datajack (or a clean and stabile enough room to keep a trode net in place), and the extra vehicle skill bonuses are available with a .5 Essence "Control Rig" - so the Vehicle Rigger went from a 5 Essenece extraganza to a simple piece of Headware on page 331 of the basic book. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if Riggers got some more toys to play with in Arsenal or Unwired, as they now have the free Essence needed to actually afford them. The Vehicle Rigger in the basic book is a fairly solid character for a basic book archetype and has 3 Essence left over... -Frank |
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Sep 4 2006, 02:15 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 366 Joined: 9-August 06 From: Holiday Florida Member No.: 9,055 |
Im actually kind of glad they changed this, I always felt the VCR was WAAAY to essence intensive as 'getaway driver' is usually a secondary job of one of the players in my campaigns (I like to run small 3-4 person groups).
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Sep 4 2006, 02:33 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 15-August 06 Member No.: 9,122 |
Wow, this board moves quickly!
FrankTrollman: You are saying that you can for the most part piecemeal a rigger from various components? How does that stack up to to the previous editions VCR? I seem to recall that the VCR was available in three levels, can a current rigger get anywhere near the bonuses as the old? Hullbreach: I too believed the old VCR was way too costly, but by replacing it with better grade cyberware when possible offset that enough for one of the characters to make a truly scary combat biker (from the old 1st edition sport) that seemed like a lot of fun! KXT & LilithTaveril: Thanks for posting! |
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Sep 4 2006, 03:20 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Yeah, this edition really opened up the options for mundane characters. Eventually, they all become samurai/rigger/hackers who can shoot you in the face from a moving vehicle while sending six steel lynxes, guns blazing, at you.
Which is cool, but it does remove some of the niche protection the hacker and the rigger had before. However, previously I usually glossed over those roles as they took forever and only involved the one character that specialised in them. The rules for hacking and rigging were also pretty atrocious before. Anyone remember control pool, AKA "only riggers may avoid incoming fire"? Or taking two hours with the team hacker on his own little run before the main one? Sure, their job can be done by any cybered, mundane character, but that's cool! I LIKE my action heroes being able to beat up the bad guy AND have car chases, not having to have one character who can do one and one who can do the other. The hacking thing not so much, but maybe in Unwired they'll bring a bit more specialised cyberware into it so you actually have to sacrifice your samurai/rigging skills to be a top-notch hacker. |
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Sep 4 2006, 03:21 AM
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#8
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Yep. A Reaction Enhancer, a Control Rig, a Datajack, a Smartlink, and a Hot Sim Module pretty much covers it.
Well, if you're running in full VR (available with the Sim Module and a Datajack), your driving tests have their threshold reduced by 1 - that's much like rolling 3 extra dice except more reliable. If you are running your VR "Hot" you get to take 3 IPs per round - roughly equivalent to having Wired Reflexes 2 while jacked into your vehicle. If you have a Reaction Enhancer, you go firster and you roll more dice on Pilot Tests. If you have a Control Rig you get an additional +2 dice on Piloting and Gunnery tests. If you have a Smartlink you get an additional 2 dice on your Gunnery tests when personally targetting thing. --- So.... The full scale Rigger can plug herself into a Westwind with a pintle mount and act 3 times, firing her guns at +4 and driving her car at essentially +6 or better. Sure, it's no "reduced target numbers" - but nothing in 4th edition does that any more. Within the context of SR4, the Rigger does very well. And she does it all for 27,000 :nuyen: and 1.3 Essence. That's pretty muchan improvement over the old VCR 2, and it's cheaper than the VCR 1. And it's useful for other things. -Frank |
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Sep 4 2006, 03:49 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 115 Joined: 25-May 05 Member No.: 7,415 |
Well, you could argue that -1 to thresholds is a reduction in target numbers, but it's technicalities. From what I've seen in my game so far, fighting from a vehicle is VERY effective, even if you're not rigging it. Fighting from a technical with a mounted weapon pretty much doubles your armour. Plus, the cyber required to actually rig a vehicle is very cheap, as are the vehicles themselves! In fact, it's getting to the point where I wonder why anyone would bother cybering their security guards, when they could just get a drone to do it for a fraction of the cost, as well as going 3 times in a round instead of 1... |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:51 AM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
I'm pretty sure there's no VCR because the commlink can handle everything a VCR and DVD could handle, though using its own format as VCR tapes and DVDs have long been outmoded in the Shadowrun setting ...
/Ducks |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:58 AM
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#11
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Should note that Hot Ssim carries more dangers, like addiction and eventual burnout.
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Sep 4 2006, 05:21 AM
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#12
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Target Group: Members Posts: 3 Joined: 15-August 06 Member No.: 9,122 |
Thanks everybody, I think I can now safely leave my "comfort zone" stealth adept and give this new rigger a try. I suppose I can get some wired reflexes or something to get rid of some of that pesky extra Essence that this version of the decker will have after not needing to spend 5 points on the VCR.......
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Sep 4 2006, 05:47 AM
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#13
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Target Group: Members Posts: 19 Joined: 4-January 06 Member No.: 8,131 |
A pintle mount requires someone to stand behind the gun, aim it, and fire it manually. Why would you get any bonuses from rigging to do that. A pintle mount is typically seen on the tops of trucks and Humvee's. Internally mounted weapons, turrent mounted weapons, even fixed mounted external weapons could be argued in favor of the bonus, but an unaugmented, muscle-operated pintle mount? I wouldn't think so. Smartlink bonus - sure, but not a control bonus. |
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Sep 4 2006, 05:59 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
Yo Frank, I'm new to SR4 so i'm not contradicting but i'm sceptical. The way i read it, Reaction Enhancers and Smartlinks won't help you when you're using VR hot sim because "sim mods override you're motor funtions while you are fully immersed in VR". U would get 3 passes/turn, but ur Init. is based on Responce + Intuition, not Reaction + Initiative. And u would have a +6 dice pool modifyer because precieving the meat world wile in VR is difficult. (sr4 pg228) |
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Sep 4 2006, 08:14 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
Shouldn't be a modifier for perceiving the meat world because you're not in the matrix as such. That would apply to perceiving the meat world through your meat body I think, not via the VR.
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Sep 4 2006, 08:42 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 500 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Salt Lake UT Member No.: 9,299 |
my understanding has always been that you pretty much have to use your meat body to use a smartlink. It's pushing the envelope to say that any atribute, implant, or skill that involves the character below the neck can aply to VR because the sim module includes the RAS override. agian, I don't know. Im just saying how i read it but how i read it could be biased by SRII and SR3. The VCR was allways a full immmersion thing and this is the first time the rules have addressed the fact that you cannot rig a bike (at least not in full VR). |
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Sep 4 2006, 10:39 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 3-October 05 Member No.: 7,802 |
I was referring to drones and rigging in general, if I misunderstood someone else I apologise.
Personally I feel on the smartlink subject that a smartlink would not give you anything the vehicle sensors don't already. Now this doesn't mean smartlink bonus with rigged weapons should be automatic, I can easily imagine this effect merely helping counteract the fact you lose normal depth perception and other factors that may help a person fire a weapon in their hands. |
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Sep 4 2006, 10:58 AM
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#18
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Even Rigger3(rev) stated that you could, and what components were required. |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:05 PM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
nope, iirc when rigging you use your meat initiative, but your (hot-or-cold)sim initiative passes. also, for some reason, i seem to recall that when rigging a vehicle, you use your physical attributes to control everything. and finally, your ability to perceive things through your meat body is certainly affected, but you can see just fine through the vehicle's sensors. which are pretty cheap to buy, actually. (a camera and microphone basic set will run you about 200 :nuyen: iirc) |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:20 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
Please tell me you're joking.... :eek: |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:21 PM
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#21
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
No, he posted "/ducks" at the end because he was being completely serious. |
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Sep 4 2006, 04:32 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 684 Joined: 8-April 06 From: My dorm room Member No.: 8,438 |
Oh, I thought that "/ducks" was some kind of signature. My bad. :oops:
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Sep 4 2006, 07:19 PM
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#23
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Project Terminus: Soul Hunters Group: Members Posts: 1,052 Joined: 6-November 03 From: Casselberry, Florida U.S.A. Member No.: 5,798 |
On the ras override thought do read that with a proper test that can be overridden.
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Sep 4 2006, 07:36 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 734 Joined: 30-August 05 Member No.: 7,646 |
Woot! I got a bite! :rotfl: |
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Sep 4 2006, 10:02 PM
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#25
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
For some people, it probably should be! |
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